How appealing is kingdom exclusion?

Studied as a social phenomenon, how widespread is kingdom exclusion? Over a year ago, I began my research, but was confronted by a paucity of data on the teaching. Granted, Watchman Nee, Arlen L. Chitwood and J.D. Faust have written exhaustively on the subject, but few others have. It is not studied in universities or seminaries – several calls to professors reveal it is not even known. Few churches teach it. Few websites promote it (a search of key words at Google Trends reveals there is not enough data to establish a trend). Most Christians have never heard of it.

This is not to say it is entirely unknown. Chitwood’s writings pop up everywhere, largely as he allows free distribution of his work. Nee is quite well-known and perhaps the most prominent figure. Further, the basic concept of exclusion — judgment of the believer after death — is commonplace. Catholics maintain the doctrine of purgatory, which in many ways, despite claims to the contrary by Faust and others, parallels kingdom exclusion. More generally, many Christians suspect that some form of negative judgment will befall them for unfaithfulness.

The most popular form of “exclusion” is the belief that Christians will occupy positions or experience rewards commensurate with their faithfulness. This form is mild, though so mild that it is hardly emphasized, thus constituting a mere sentiment.

Scriptures do speak of judgment. “For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?” (1 Pet. 4:17). “If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor. 3:14-15). Contextually, though, these and other passages do not imply exclusion (defined as the temporary punishment of carnal Christians in the millennial kingdom). Peter speaks of the judgment of the “household” of God, not individuals. Paul speaks of the testing of works in the context of ministry, not the punishment of believers.

The overriding concern is grace, the defining aspect of our faith. The radical forms of exclusion deal with this concern in so complex a manner that it becomes nearly intelligible. The doctrine of exclusion, they say, is not taught in any one place in scripture, but all over. One must intertwine various passages and verses to arrive at the correct doctrine of exclusion. Problematically, the leading figures of exclusion believe radically different things about it. These two factors probably account for its failure to take hold. It is complex and contradictory, and there is no one version of it. That exponents of exclusion claim it’s what the scriptures really say complicates matters further, for they simply do not say the same things.

For these reasons, kingdom exclusion probably won’t become any more common tomorrow than it is today.

© 2009, Mark Adams. All rights reserved.

55 thoughts on “How appealing is kingdom exclusion?

  1. Who cares how “appealing” it is. That is what is so wrong with the church today. It seeks to be “appealing”. Following Christ was not “appealing” when He walked the earth. Why would it be now?

    This is the most attacked message by the enemy, so there is little wonder as to why it wouldn’t be well recognized at this time.

    We are nearly 2,000 years away from its original giving. We should not find it somehow “unusual” that we are further away from God’s Truth as a “whole” in today’s generation.

    Revelation tells us it would be like that. You are hard pressed to find a church that can even get the simple message of salvation by grace through faith apart from works correct these days much less the deeper more meatier things of the Word.

  2. I care. And I think it is a relevant point. Now, if you want to talk about the theological viability of kingdom exclusion, check out one of my other posts. I discuss KE’s deficiencies extensively in those other posts. But, I am proposing yet another question: Why are so few interested in KE? You suggest it is because it is the truth, and people just don’t want to hear the truth. Where is your evidence that this is so? Perhaps I am correct, that KE is false. Perhaps that is why people just don’t know about it. Take Gnosticism. How many people really know about that? Yet it was common in the first few centuries of the faith. Now, apart from sensational pieces like the Da Vinci Code, it is relatively unknown. I hypothesize that it is relatively unknown because it is false and the Spirit of God is not in it.

    I fear that your criticism of the mainstream church — for not knowing or caring to know KE — is inappropriate. It suggests that God is incapable of reaching large groups of people. Yet look at the evidence. In every continent, in nearly every (perhaps every) country, Jesus is known. Don’t tell me that the truth of the Gospel is not fully realized. I don’t accept that. That’s why I’ve dedicated myself to critical analysis of this topic.

    That few know of KE demonstrates how ineffective proponents of KE are, and how deficient KE is intrinsically.

  3. “I care.”

    I know and that’s part of what is blinding you. Your need to have the “majority” of at least one mainstream denomination agree with you is a hinderance not a help!

    Truth is Truth regardless if a million people believe it, one person believes it or no one believes it.

    “Perhaps I am correct, that KE is false.”

    Perhaps, but you certainly haven’t refuted it yet.

    And I love your indirect notion to try and tie this once agian to Gnosticism. It’s really sad that folks like you hold those that read your work in such low regard as to their intelligence.

    “It suggests that God is incapable of reaching large groups of people.”

    Oh how wrong again you are Mark. No one has EVERY made such a claim. Once again that is “you” making an incorrect assumption, and you know what happens when we “assume” things.

    Just because people do not want to listen in NO WAY makes God incapable. What utter nonsense.

    Read Romans 1. It has nothing to do with God. God desires that all would be saved. It is “man” that doesn’t want God not the other way around. Saying you want God does not mean you “really” want God.

    “Don’t tell me that the truth of the Gospel is not fully realized. I don’t accept that.”

    And once again you put forth your true agenda. You are as closed minded as they come. There is nothing anyone can say to you that is going to change anything for you, for your mind is already made up regardless of what Scripture says.

    THAT is sad!

  4. Jason says Mark has not refuted KE yet. I don’t know about that. This blog has some of the most well thought out ideas I’ve ever read about the subject. Though on my own I figured KE was false, Mark has SHOWN how it is false on so many ways. I don’t think Jason’s making a good case here.

  5. One of my points had to do with the amount of confusion there is in the KE camp. Each of the major proponents describes exclusion fundamentally differently:

    1. Chitwood — suffer the hurt of the second death
    2. Nee — purgation with fire, the lake of fire
    3. Faust — beaten with a rod of fire

    Other views include being put in a place of regret, being servants, not rulers, living in a ghetto, etc.

    Some argue KE is true, but which version? That’s why very many simply can’t accept KE. If each exclusionist claims to have the absolute truth, every other exclustionist has to be wrong. That situation is not going to make many converts.

  6. And Ted you are entitled to your opinion, but we all know about opinions. Mark has “shown” nothing. Maybe he has to you, but for those of us that have been on the other side and seen the kingdom message for what it is Mark has said and added nothing that anyone else in the so-called majority has said before and it simply isn’t convincing.

    Look…most of us have lost a lot by accepting this message. Almost eveyone of us has lost friends over this. Some of us have been kicked out of churches. Some of us have lost teaching positions. Some of us have even lost spouses over the gospel of the kingdom.

    Do you know how much simpler and easier our lives would be if we would simply just say okay you’re right. Life could go back to “normal” for most of us if we would do that.

    The problem is the message that you all preach is not the message of Scripture. To go back now would to be as Hebrews shows of those that have tasted the good fruit and turned their back on it.

    We see the kingdom message, not because we are smart, not because we are special, not becuase of anything we have said or done. God has chosen to turn the light on for some and for others He has chosen not to turn the light on I believe out of His mercy, because to those that are given the Truth much is required, much more so than those that have not received the message.

    But once again its not that God doesn’t desire to give it to everyone, as Mark has shown there are folks out there that simply don’t want to have anything to do with it regardless if it’s the Truth or not.

    I too pray that God will turn the light on for you and Mark. I don’t know if He will or not, but I hope for your sakes’ He does, and again more importantly for those that sit under Mark’s teachings. He is going to be held responsible for them as well.

    And if you cause one of the little ones to stumble…I think we all know the rest.

    Ted the bottom line is no matter how “well thought out” the material is if it doesn’t agree with Scripture it’s just man’s ideas trying to refute God’s Truth.

    But once again we are not going to get anywhere because neither one of you have any desire to see anything any differently than you do now. So we could give you untold numbers of verses and line them all up, but at the end you would simply dismiss it, because you don’t want this message to be true, because it rocks your very foundation, and who in their right mind wants to have that happen :). I know we’ve all been there.

  7. “If each exclusionist claims to have the absolute truth, every other exclustionist has to be wrong. That situation is not going to make many converts.”

    Once again Mark your dishonesty comes spewing forward. Not one person that believes in the gospel of the kingdom has ever said they have the absolute truth regarding everything as you seemingly insinuate.

    I hope people can see through your dishonesty. I’m sure some will miss it. Obviously Ted has, but my goodness it’s as blatant as ever.

    You’re arguing from the abusrdly untrue is not helping your case in the slightest.

  8. Jason, it is incautious of you to accuse me of dishonesty because I “seemingly insinuate” a certain point. As a courtesy, would you first establish that I have actually said that thing before accusing me of it?

  9. Also, Jason, please explain the following in light of your accusation against me:

    “We see the kingdom message, not because we are smart, not because we are special, not becuase of anything we have said or done. God has chosen to turn the light on for some and for others He has chosen not to turn the light on I believe out of His mercy, because to those that are given the Truth much is required, much more so than those that have not received the message.

    “But once again its not that God doesn’t desire to give it to everyone, as Mark has shown there are folks out there that simply don’t want to have anything to do with it regardless if it’s the Truth or not.”

    What is this “Truth” you speak of? Is it the absolute truth? Or is it partial truth? You claim to have whatever it is, and that I do not (“The problem is the message that you all preach is not the message of Scripture…”). So, you claim to have something. Is it absolute truth? Or partial truth? Just curious.

  10. This is rich. Jason accuses Mark of claiming that others say they have the absolute truth. At the same time he says Mark doesn’t have the “Truth” and he does. Priceless.

  11. I can’t win this argument, Ted. Jason accuses me of dishonesty, saying I said others claim to have the absolute truth, and then he says he has the “Truth” and I don’t. He is the best example of the thing I “seemingly insinuate[d],” but if I point that out, I’m being dishonest. File under: Catch-22.

  12. The problem is, I’m not insinuating anything, I’m simply relating facts. Jason unwittingly provides evidence of my statement that each exclusionist claims to have the truth. Again, I will quote his own words: “We see the kingdom message, not because we are smart, not because we are special, not because of anything we have said or done. God has chosen to turn the light on for some and for others He has chosen not to turn the light on I believe out of His mercy, because to those that are given the Truth much is required, much more so than those that have not received the message.” He just up and says we don’t have it because “He has chosen not to turn the light on…”

    Cornerstone Christian Fellowship suggests the same, “Most churches today emphasize the gospel of grace, but do not teach the gospel of the glories of Christ.” Again, we just don’t have the full gospel.

    Chitwood writes, “How many Christians though know these things? How many, for that matter, are even interested? Christians talk about being saved and going to heaven, though most don’t have the slightest idea concerning what is involved in saved man’s association with the heavens” (Run to Win).

    Let’s not “insulate.” Let’s just say it the way it is. Exclusionists claim to have “the Truth” (again, this is Jason’s phrase), the rest of us do not. How I’m being dishonest by pointing this out, I do not know.

    Now, back to my point. Each exclusionist claims to have “the Truth,” but they have different versions of it. Chitwood says carnal Christians will be hurt of the second death, Nee that they will be placed in eternal flames (though not eternally), Faust that they will be beaten with a rod. Others say carnal Christians will be cast into a place of regret, or made to be servants in the kingdom, etc.

    If someone wants to embrace KE, which version?

    Jason, since you claim to have “the Truth,” would you be so kind as to tell us what “the Truth” is? It can’t be all those things claimed by the men above.

  13. How about the biblical version of Truth. You base your argument on which version of KE? That is the problem that you have, you look to man for wisdom instead of the scriptures. That is ultimately the sad, sad truth. I don’t know why it would matter what the loss of rewards is and the pain of the second death is. What about the fact of not hearing “Well done good and faithful servant” This is the Loadacian church age and the church is expected to be lukewarm. If you truly looked at the Word of the Kingdom teaching you would see that it is completely based on scripture. Although I have not read Faust or Nee, I can tell you that when you read Chitwood he lists all the scriptures right in his book. When you read Chitwood’s work, assuming you did, did you look up all the scriptures he lists for you?

  14. “B,” I suggest you read some of the other articles at, particularly my series on the writings of Arlen Chitwood. What is sad is how so many simply repeat the same mantra, “you look to man for wisdom instead of the scriptures,” when, ironically, it is a man they are defending, not scripture. Truth is, there is no kingdom exclusion in scripture, not as described by Chitwood, or Faust, or Nee (and, yes, they believe radically different things). You say that “this is the Loadacian church age,” but that’s speculation. As for Chitwood listing scripture, indeed, he does. But none of what he cites supports his position. In fact, very often, if you look up the passage, it contradicts what he has said.

    Ultimately, is kingdom exclusion appealing? No. The Nee version is predominant, but most people, when they examine the issues, realize exclusion is a gospel of works, plain and simple.

  15. You said it all my brother, “appealing”, it is not appealing to you so you choose not to believe it. You say were not living in the laodicean church age, I think you just made the case for it.

  16. “B,” you have utterly failed to understand the purpose of this post: “Studied as a social phenomenon, how widespread is kingdom exclusion?”

    As for my choosing not to believe, how do you establish from scripture that we are living in the “laodicean church age”? Please explain. That teaching is missing in my Bible.

  17. The biblical truth? How about it. This KE site has a lot of biblical truth, but most of the comments are just air. Where does it say we are in this or that age? Really. Give scriptural proof.

  18. Hello Mike and Ted,

    I just barely read your posts a few years after the last post. Anyways, the bible does show kingdom exclusion if your a “babe” in Christ and not “wise or prudent” as the bible says. God purposefully did that just as he makes some vessels for honor and some for dishonor (predestination). Both of you seem to be arguing either out of ignorance which is not really your fault if God did not reveal this TRUTH to either of you or your soul is out of control and you are not walking in the spirit (man’s arrogant nature – carnally minded). Just look in the bible about the tripartite man created in God’s image and likeness. It is undeniable that God separates Spirit,Soul,Body just as Father,Son,Spirit (Trinity) are separate but one God. When a person dies the spirit ascends to God, the body stays in the grave, and the soul departs to Sheol. You see there is a rightly dividing of the three (spirit, soul, body). Now those he justified he also glorified. Jesus by his salvation of grace through faith has given salvation past and future (spirit and body) to all who are saved regardless of spirituality or carnality. The present salvation of the soul is an ongoing sanctification (conditional) process until we die so we can be made more like Christ and be prepared for glory(run the race) (remember, overcoming servant). Do you think anyone who believes Kingdom Exclusion believes we are saved by works? Sorry, but what a joke (ha ha). Obviously, there is a separation of our three parts so why couldn’t there be three salvations. This does not discredit the blood of Jesus Christ at all. It is a fact once you are saved you are alway saved by grace through faith. But, how do you reconcile the book of James with all the talk about faith without works are dead. Oh, I have an idea. Let’s rightly divide the word of God. Knowing that the bible can not contradict itself we have to in the light of scripture, place everything to its own category. Just like God made mankind and the animal kingdom and each to their own. The bible continues that same logic all throughout scripture.
    I would like to say please open your mind but not the mind of your carnal soul but of your spiritual mind only. Please pray on the matter. I am trying to save my brothers from their sin of unbelief unto death. I am not saying your spirit is unsaved but your soul will be cast into outer darkness after the judgment seat of Christ takes place if you don’t repent. Don’t forget the apostate LIARS will have a double portion of hellfire in Gehenna. This is the second death and it will last for the 1000 year that Christ will reign and rule the nations with his bride (faithful servants). Repent and be saved (soul). If you seek to save your life(soul) you will lose it but if you lose your life(soul) for Jesus sake you will find it. Wake up out of the matrix programming you both are in. Repent, Repent, Repent…………..And you will be saved(soul). Take care.

  19. Jt, if you think carefully about this statement — “It is undeniable that God separates Spirit,Soul,Body just as Father,Son,Spirit (Trinity) are separate but one God” — you might grasp how heretical it is. Man, created in the God’s image, is not three persons of a trinity, nor does the Bible ever make such a statement. I cannot recall the last time my soul prayed to my spirit, or gave glory to my body. Nor can I recall my spirit saying, “This is my son, my body, whom I have begotten.” Further, of the Trinity — Father, Son, Spirit — no member is at war with the other. Chitwood, who propounds “Word of the Kingdom,” directly states that the soul/body and spirit of a man are at war. Kingdom exclusion is heresy.

    If you are a man of understanding, please tell me how, according to your doctrine, the soul is ever saved. No advocate of soul salvation (e.g. Chitwood) has ever been able to explain how the soul is ever saved. No doubt, you cannot either.

  20. Mark,the salvation of the soul is probably the most misunderstood concept in Christianity today. This may sound incredible, since virtually every church-going Christian thinks that his understanding of soul salvation is correct, but only a handful of Christians has bothered to check out the Scriptures to see what soul salvation really means. It matters not what preachers say about soul salvation, if the Scriptures say something different. Spirit and soul are not the same in the Bible. The following Scripture clearly establishes that soul and spirit are not the same:

    1 Th 5:23 (KJV) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    This confirms that man is a triune being, just as God is a Trinity. It also helps to confirm that spirit salvation differs from soul salvation. Spirit salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ plus nothing. The following Scripture about Paul and Silas confirms this:

    Acts 16:30-31 (KJV) (30) And (the Philippian jailer) brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? (31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

    Spirit salvation is very simple. One simply believes that Jesus Christ died for his sins. One can do nothing to earn this salvation. It is a gift from God, and the Holy Spirit even provides the faith. However, the Scriptures go into great detail regarding soul salvation, which should occur after spirit salvation. The Scriptures are also clear that effort or striving is necessary for soul salvation. The following Scripture confirms this:

    James 1:21 (KJV) Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

    James 1:21 (ASV 1901) Wherefore putting away all filthiness and overflowing of wickedness, receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

    This Scripture is addressing believers and it states that a believer can save his soul by getting rid of sin in his life and studying and obeying the Bible. This requirement differs from Acts 16:30-31. Spirit salvation and soul salvation are not the same.

    The difference between spirit salvation and soul salvation is the difference between grace and works. The spirit is saved by faith in Jesus Christ, while the soul is saved by faithfulness to Jesus Christ. Soul salvation does not determine whether a person enters heaven, but it does determine his reward in heaven. Some Christians will enter heaven with no reward because of unfaithfulness to Jesus. The following Scripture confirms this:

    1 Cor 3:13-15 (KJV) (13) Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. (14) If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. (15) If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    The following Scripture also confirms that soul salvation is the result of works:

    1 Pet 1:7-9 (KJV) (7) That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: (8) Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: (9) Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

    This Scripture is addressed to believers who have faith that has matured, and when tested at the return of Jesus, will be found to be as precious as gold resulting in praise, honor and glory from the Lord Jesus Christ. This results in the saving of their souls or reward for being faithful.

    In the following Scripture, Jesus explains the requirement for soul salvation:

    Mat 16:24-27 (KJV) (24) Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. (25) For whosoever will save his life (psuche) shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life (psuche) for my sake shall find it. (26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul (psuche)? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul (psuche)? (27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    Please note that the Greek word for life and soul is the same word psuche throughout this passage of Scripture. Jesus is telling His disciples about soul salvation and how it determines their reward for successfully crucifying the old flesh nature. This passage of Scripture clearly establishes that soul salvation is according to works.

    Spirit and soul are not the same. The soul is what a person is in regard to his character or his person. It is possible for a person to be totally changed as a person and in character. The reason for this is that the soul is a person’s mind, emotions, intellect, will and heart. It is what kind of person he is in life. This is why the Greek word psuche is alternately translated as life or soul.

    It is possible for a person to lose his soul in this life and be a totally different person. This happens when a person lives according to his new spirit nature, which never sins (1 John 3:9), instead of his old flesh nature, which can do nothing good. Therefore, the Christian who loses his soul in order to save it is the faithful, spiritual Christian who will receive a reward at the Judgment Seat of Christ when the Christian’s works will be tried by fire. The souls of Christians who continued to live according to their old flesh nature will be lost (i.e., they will perish or be destroyed), and they will receive no reward. Their spirits—which are born of God—will still be saved, and they will still receive a redeemed body. The redeemed body will live in complete submission to the spirit, so the soul (i.e., personality, character and mind) of these believers will be totally different in heaven. Their souls will perish, but they will be completely and totally redeemed.

    There will be Christians who will be disqualified as the Bride of Christ, and they will lose their inheritance as a coheir with Jesus Christ. They will still be in heaven, and they will be totally forgiven for all their sins. Christians who had lived their lives as gluttons will no longer be gluttons. Christians who had lived lives as busybodies and gossips will no longer be that way. Christians who were liars will no longer be liars. Christians who were pharisaical and self-righteous will no longer be that way.

    In like manner, Christians who were drunkards will no longer be drunkards. Christians who were homosexuals will no longer be homosexual. Christians who were adulterers will no longer be adulterers. Christians caught up in seeking after wealth and material possessions will no longer be worldly minded. All of these Christians will have lost their souls, but they will have new souls. Simply stated, their lives will be totally different, but they will have no positions of honor and glory in the millennial kingdom of Jesus Christ.

  21. The question is not what I teach but rather what does God’s Word have to say on the matter. I do not make this stuff up as I go along. Like I said before, pray to God to reveal this TRUTH to you. I put it here in black and white and I can give you even more if need be. I am not writing here to gloat or boast that I am more spiritual or smarter than you. I am merely trying to help a brother on his Christian journey. I figure you started this blog because deep down inside you have to justify to yourself why Kingdom Exclusion is false for one reason or another (clever aren’t I, ha ha). By the way, just to get this all straight for your understanding, the soul will eventually be saved as through fire for the Christians who lived Carnally while here on Earth (Hmmm, contradiction, I think not, let me explain). This reviving of the soul will occur most likely between the end of Christ Millennial Kingdom and before the new Heavens and the new Earth. Remember, Rev 21:4 and God will wipe away all tears from their eyes, and there shall be no more death neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be anymore pain: for the former things have passed away. That is the point, the unprofitable Christian will be made whole again in Spirit, and Soul, And Body. The fire is the fire of Gehenna (HELL). Yes, you may have not heard this but, the punishment for some Christians (HYPOCRITES & APOSTATES) is not being allowed to partake in the Heavenly Jerusalem, “And if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life (regarding soul salvation)(keep in mind this is one book out of three books of life, the other two are for the body and the spirit), from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book (Revelation 22:19),” and be cast into Hell (GEHENNA)(double portion judgement for apostates), both body and soul, this is not to be confused with the Lake of Fire (Unbelievers only). The Christians that are cast into outer darkness where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth is another torment for the saved but hypocritical Christian (non-overcoming, unprofitable, etc) only (single judgement). If you plan on saying I am HERETICAL then you have heard but have not understood. Mark 9:48 says “their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched (NOT THE LAKE OF FIRE, REPEAT NOT THE LAKE OF FIRE). If you need me to explain in a little more detail about Gehenna and how that punishment is only for the Saved, let me know (REMINDER: NOT HERETICAL I REPEAT NOT HERETICAL). This 2nd death punishment is obviously not the same 2nd death punishment that all unbelievers will experience, which is in the Lake of Fire after the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT. For the record I don’t believe they will be tormented forever but rather ETERNALLY DESTROYED (THEY WILL BE ETERNALLY DEAD AND NEVER AGAIN RESURRECTED, EVER AGAIN). Yes, some may receive few stripes and others many, all before their body and soul cease to exist. God is fair so I am sure everyone will get according to their own works. At least God is merciful in a sense that he won’t let them be tortured for all eternity (consider your family and friends who are not saved at least you can rest in the New Heavens and Earth knowing they are not being tortured for all eternity, that would be a bit upsetting don’t you think?). Also, this as I mentioned is biblical and not “heretical” just because you have not heard it in THE MAIN STREAM CHURCHES which I believe have been infiltrated by the Devil and his fallen counterparts (MUCH FALSE DOCTRINE HAS PREVAILED THERE FOR CENTURIES AND MOST CHRISTIANS ACCEPT IT LIKE A SHEEP TO THE SLAUGHTER). It is so sad that many Christians have been saved spiritually to only have been defeated at the forefront because, like the parable of sower, they were not planted on fertile ground but landed on rocky ground where they could never properly root themselves in God’s word. Remember, the soul is tried in the fire at the Judgement Seat of Christ, so like I said previously, If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. . Let me know if you have any questions which I will do my best to answer for you. Take care and God bless you.

  22. Our souls are saved by dying to self and living for God. Titus 3:3 (KJV) For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

    This verse describes Christians in the Church. Christians operating in the power of the Holy Spirit can turn away from their sinful ways. This is the repentance that all Christians should do after they have been born from above. The result is a new life in Christ lived by the power of the Holy Spirit. This new life is not automatic with the new birth experience, but must be appropriated by allowing the Word of God transform one’s life.

    Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

    After the new birth experience, the Holy Spirit empowers all believers who repent of their sins, and they now have the power to turn away from their evil ways and live the victorious Christian life. The Christian’s life cannot be reformed. It must be transformed by the renewing of the Holy Spirit in those Christians who crucify self and live in the newness of life. Both the new birth experience and the transforming or renewing of the Holy Spirit are seen in the following verse.

    Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    God saved us by imparting and quickening our spirit with a portion of the Spirit of God. The gift of God is a part of his spirit, which totally justifies us and forgives us of all of our sins. After this act of God, we are totally justified forever, having received the imputed righteousness of Christ. The renewing of the Holy Ghost is the sanctification process that transforms us into a new creature. The washing of regeneration pertains to our spirits being made alive, and the renewing of the Holy Ghost pertains to our souls, which is the new man in Christ.

    Titus 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

    The renewing of the Holy Ghost is dispersed (i.e., shed) in a continuous and gradual manner upon all Christians who die to self and appropriate the life of Christ. This transformation is by way of the life of Jesus Christ our Savior, but it is not automatic. The Christian must do something to appropriate the life of Christ. He must repent, die to self and study the Word of God, which brings about this transformation. The Scriptures call this putting off the old man (i.e., the old soul) and putting on the new man in Christ (i.e., the new soul). This is how one’s soul is saved at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

    Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

    Our sprit has been saved and justified—past tense—and we will receive a glorified body in the future. We also have the power available to us to save our souls by the power of the Holy Spirit. If we do this, then we are made heirs with Christ and realize the hope of eternal life. Eternal life pertains to soul salvation and not spirit salvation. Eternal life can be lost at the Judgment Seat of Christ, but spirit salvation is eternally secure.

    Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

    In order to save our souls and not lose our opportunity to have eternal life, we must lose our souls by destroying our flesh nature. Good works means we turn from our flesh nature and assume the nature of Christ. The Christian must lay hold onto eternal life, which is the same as soul salvation. Good works must be maintained in order to realize eternal life. If this happens then the Christian can receive glory and honor and immortality of his soul (i.e., life). Eternal life is the commemoration of a life well-lived—remembered forever. Eternal life is the reward of the inheritance.

  23. The soul is either saved unconditionally by grace or it is not. Presently, you are dodging the question (despite your verbosity) by not answering it directly. If you won’t answer the question, there really isn’t much to say.

  24. JT, my message got posted after your second reply. Look, you’re wasting your time here. My objection to “soul salvation,” as taught by Chitwood and the like, is that none will answer a basic question: is the soul saved unconditionally by grace through faith? If you won’t answer that question, don’t bothering commenting any further.

  25. The soul of a believer is literally saved by grace through faith unconditionally from Hell presently and the Lake of Fire future but, not from the loss that will accure at the Judgment Seat of Christ which Paul speaks of in 1 Corinthians chapter 3. Our present works are what determines our reward or loss at the JSOC.

    Reward = salvation of the soul.

    Loss = no salvation of the soul.

    The loss of the “salvation of the soul” does not mean that a Christian will be cast into the Lake of Fire or another realm literally (Outer Darkness), it means no rulership with Christ.

  26. Arlen, do I understand you correctly, that you teach that the spirit of a saved man will not suffer loss of reward at the Judgment Seat of Christ? Only his soul?

  27. OK Mark, you got me. It all comes down to this. You are the man. You want me to give you a straight answer in a nice pretty gift wrapped box just to make you feel all warm and fuzzy. “You want the truth you can’t handle the truth!” Sorry, I couldn’t resist. To answer your question NO THE SALVATION OF YOUR SOUL IS NOT SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST (I GUESS YOU WILL WANT TO BURN BE AT THE STAKE FOR WHAT I JUST SAID). Like I said earlier certain things in the bible are spiritually discerned and only given by God as he sees fit. Do not marvel at this, you either got it or you don’t. Well, that felt good since this is supposedly my last posting here. What is saved by faith through grace is your (Spirit) what is saved by faith through works is your (Soul) which remember consists of your mind, emotions, intellect, will, and heart. Grace is a free gift from God (salvation of spirit). Your soul is saved by being faithful to God by WORKING OR BASICALLY LIVING AS A DAILY SACRIFICE TO HIM BECAUSE HE HAS SAVED YOU you from death of your spirit. He says bare your cross daily and deny yourself. You can’t do that until you are BORN AGAIN (SPIRIT NOT SOUL OR BODY). REMEMBER, you have to rightly divide the word of God. So faith without works is dead or another words your soul without GOOD WORKS is dead because if you are doing BAD WORKS then you are carnally minded and not spiritually minded. So basically, the way GOD SEES YOU is that you are unprofitable and a carnal non overcoming child of his (like the PRODICAL SON BUT STILL LIVING IN THE MUCH AND MIRE OF THIS WORLD). Have I mentioned you can lose your inheritance from GOD By not overcoming this world. That is biblical but you will probably chock it off to my vivid imagination. Only a child of God can lose an inheritance (will not earn the crowns or rule or reign with him as his bride). So, it does seem like you do lose something of exceptional value when we get judged at the JUDGEMENT SEAT OF CHRIST (REWARDS). Oh ya, what about the your actual soul (pesonality, will, mind), will that perish if you are not an overcomer? There is a bible passage that says and I have already mentioned it but you may have forgotten, If you seek to save your life (soul) you will loser it (JUDGEMENT SEAT OF CHRIST) If you lose your life (soul) for my sake (Jesus) you will save it (JUDGEMENT SEAT OF CHRIST). This passage does not show you being saved by grace through faith but rather something a believer has to do in order to save something. I will will let you guess what that something is, let’s make this fun. Don’t forget your spirit was saved by God’s grace through faith in Jesus. OK, I did not want you to get confused there, just making sure. Now back to your soul. Just curious, do you think God will allow the soul of a Carnal Christian (not spiritual – walking after the flesh not the spirit) to enter into everlasting life as is. Look, your spirit has been bought and paid for and God says those he justifies he also glorifies meaning you will get a new spirtual body freely from God with no sweat from your brow. Either God forgot to mention that he will sanctify us or that is a joint effort of God and man to work together in harmony to achieve that goal. WIll the soul perish if you do not overcome? Yes, it will but, hold onto something as I don’t want you to slip out of your chair and bruise your bottom blue, eventually it will be saved not by grace but AS THROUGH FIRE. You see God will give you a new soul just like the rest of your other two parts but it will be completely remade in God’s image and likeness which is good, we all want that but you will still have lost the very person you were while on this planet. “What does it gain a man if he gains the whole world and loses his soul.” Wow that is pretty serious that God mentioned the loss of soul is even greater than gaining the whole world (Not talking about your spirit here just soul). So, will God revive (save) your soul by grace even if that new soul is not really you (thought, will, emotions, intellect)? No your soul will eventually be saved AS THROUGH FIRE. How? Once again, AS THROUGH FIRE. If fire that will ultimately save your soul is the same as grace then I guess you can go on living your life with all your preconceived notions about how you choose the GOD of the universe to be, or just accept the Truth of God’s word. It’s up to you, actually it is really up to God to allow you to see what many wise and prudent can never see. Take care, God bless, and if you don’t want me to post anymore no problem. I will respect your wishes.

    1. Mark, I’ve enjoyed this interchange and I would like to discuss this topic with JT in a private email. Could you please pass my email address on to him with a request that he contact me. Thanks, Herb

  28. JT, you wrote:


    That statement constitutes the basis of my disagreement with those who teach kingdom exclusion.

  29. No. The spirit keeps man from ever entering the Lake of Fire. If man suffers loss or, if man gains reward at the JSOC man’s spirit doesn’t gain or lose anything. The spirit of the saved is already perfect.

    From my point of view the “salvation of the soul” has everything to do with positions of rulership and nothing to do literally with the Lake of fire, or a literal realm out there some where(outer darkness).

  30. Arlen,

    If the soul fails to attain the kingdom, you regard that as loss. Yet, if the spirit of a man does not gain the kingdom (i.e. reward), you insist the spirit has not suffered loss. That is inconsistent. Actually, it appears you embrace man as a whole being — spirit, soul, body. If a man fails to attain the kingdom, then his whole being does not attain the kingdom. You say as much: “man’s spirit doesn’t gain or lose anything.” Notice, he “doesn’t gain.” Well, neither does the soul.

    If the spirit, like the soul, does not “gain,” how is that not loss? After all, the inheritance is for the saints. If a man does not gain his inheritance, how does he not lose it?

    Also, you mention that the spirit is “already perfect.” How, then, is the soul made perfect? Is the soul made perfect by unconditional grace? Or is it made perfect by suffering loss?

  31. The soul is made perfect by unconditional grace. Just like our future bodies. The way we conduct our Christian lives determines reward or lose of reward as you have said. There is no literal separation of spirit, soul and body at the JSOC as many WOK people believe and teach. I agree that that is an issue. That issue is why I am not accepted by most of them. I have been very consistent with my doctrine Mark.

    From my point of view, even though a Christian suffers loss at the JSOC and does not get to be in a position of rulership, he or she is still in the Kingdom literally and in the presence of the Lord Jesus. But not as a co-ruler with Christ (separation). When this is realized by the believer he or she then will understand the metaphors that Jesus used so many times in the Gospels,(Weeping and gnashing of teeth, Gehenna, Outer Darkness etc).

    Mark, Do you think that the life (soul) of a believer is presently perfect? Is the body presently perfect? Yes or no question.

    I would like to add this. Without unconditional grace we could achieve nothing on our own.

  32. You still haven’t explained how it is that if a Christian fails to attain reward, his soul suffers loss, but his spirit does not. That is the inconsistency I addressed in my last reply.

    As regards your question, I have two statements:

    1. A Christian cannot be regarded as three, separately-existing parts. He is a whole being. The process of salvation affects him entirely. “Now may the God of peace sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Thess. 5:23).

    2. Next, in direct reply to your question, the believer is not yet perfect (cf. Phillip. 3:12). He is being sanctified — spirit, body, soul (1 Thess. 5:23) — so that on the day of Christ’s second coming he may be blameless.

    You, however, have not demonstrated through scripture that man’s three parts are “saved” successively, nor have you demonstrated that any part of a Christian is now perfect.

  33. You need to research your web site Mark, I have explained several times here at KE. You don’t accept my explaination is all. I use to use much scripture here but you called it “rhetoric”. Also, you cotradict yourself with (Phillip. 3:12).

    You quoted this in answer 1. “Now may the God of peace sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Thess. 5:23).

    My question to you is this: What happens if you are not kept blamless at His coming?

  34. Arlen, you have not previously explained how the spirit does not suffer loss if the soul does. Your other comments puzzle me. How do I contradict myself with Phillip. 3:12? My position is that Christians are not yet perfect. Paul himself stated that he was not yet perfect.

    As regards your question, the Lord will sanctify his people. We are made blameless by the blood of Christ. I do, however, understand your question. You believe that some Christians will fall short. If I were to take that position, I would say that all Christians would not attain the kingdom, for any sin, no matter its degree, is sin. I do not imagine that there is any middle way, no partial righteousness in Christ.

  35. So in your opinion “unconditional grace” has not taken effect yet. It seems by your statement that it is future. This is the contradiction that I spoke of. Your whole arument is about unconditional grace past, present and future.

    So if You are a “good servant” and another Christian is guilty of continuous sin willfully (fornication, murder, theft, lies, etc.) then that Christian is equal to yourself (a Christian not guilty of these things) at the JSOC? Why would any Christian try to be a good servant? What would be the gain?

    Christians are a whole being made of three parts which are the spirit, soul and body. Our spirit was made perfect instantly when we believed in Jesus. Our body will be made perfect in the future. Our life (soul) will be made perfect future. This is done by the blood of Christ. Our spirit grants us the privalage of everlasting life with no fear of ever entering the Lake of Fire regrdless the way we lived. Therefore the spirit does not gain or lose individually. The body of all Christians will be changed (made perfect) regardless of the way they lived. The soul of all Christians will be made perfect regardless the way they lived too. The difference is position (rank). Anything less than rulership is concidered a loss of life for the Millennium (loss of the soul) metaphorically speaking. Although we are made of three parts we are dealt with as a whole being in the outcome. I see your point of if someone’s soul suffers loss then why wouldn’t their spirit suffer loss also. My view of the subject is literally in the Millennium all Christians are completely perfect spirit, soul and body but not all are rulers. The judgment of the soul determines that.

  36. Arlen,

    In the first paragraph of your reply, you write, “It seems by your argument…” Don’t guess at what I’m saying. You are welcome to critique actual statements I have made, but don’t put words in my mouth and then object. I never made any such statement regarding unconditional grace.

    As regards the second paragraph, are you implying that you are a Christian who no longer sins? Be direct in your reply. I need to know if you are that Christian who no longer sins continually. I should certainly want to learn from you.

    You also wrote, “Why would any Christian try to be a good servant? What would be the gain?” How mercenary! Your questions reveal a level of carnality that is shocking in a minister of God. What can a Christian possibly gain in sin? I can’t even imagine.

    Again, are you the “good servant”? If not, then you have already lost your reward. If you are, then you are to be commended: your reward is guaranteed. Are you the “good servant”?

    It is possible that you will reply, “I cannot know, for only God can make that judgment.” Who then are you to accuse others? Who made you judge that you should make comparisons between the “good servant” and the Christian who sins continually?

    Truthfully, I cannot image what your reply will be, but if you can distinguish between a “good servant” and a Christian who sins continually, you should also be able to distinguish which you are.

  37. Mark,

    I didn’t put words in your mouth. But that is exactly what you just did to me. You are a master at that. I have been direct but as usual you are foolish with your petty attempt to discredit my character. You act like a little boy.

  38. Arlen,

    Your response was not entirely unexpected, though I was hoping you would have answered the question. But what could you have said? I think we both know that no reply was possible, and I am glad that you did not try.

  39. Of course I am not the good servant. I don’t have a clue if I will even be in a position of rulership. I don’t understand you Mark. I was giving an example and you have twisted it into something else in your mind. Now attack!

  40. Mark, It seems all your arguments against KE are based on what Chitwood and Faust has written and a little of what Govett and Nee has written. I would like to see you read more of Govett’s writings ie: Sermon on the Mount, Entrance into the kingdom, Kingdom Studies just to name a few and comment on them. GH Lang’s First Born Sons and First Fruits Harvest also. I have read several of Chitwood’s books and pamphlets and agree with him on most but find his reasoning and arguments somewhat lacking. The fact that I read Govett and Lang’s works prior to Chitwood I was able to understand and comprehend what Chitwood was trying to convey. You mentioned Govett’s Sins before faith and Sins After faith. This book does not explain in totality Govett’s position on KE. Mark I think you want to know the truth. Read more of these authors books and refute their arguments. I will be curious to read what you have to say.

  41. One day I may get to commenting on Robert Govett’s work or Nee’s. However, the fundamental purpose of this site is to critique theological works that have contemporary significance. Few people have heard of Govett and fewer still have read his works. Of those who champion Govett, few hold the same view on any fundamental point of Kingdom Exclusion. People read and teach Chitwood’s position on KE — a smaller group read Faust’s. In any event, there is no scriptural evidence of Kingdom Exclusion, no scriptural evidence that there are two classes of Christians who will be judged differently in the millennial kingdom.

    What I have read of Govett’s does not impress me. His books are convoluted and speculative. In fact, the entire history of End Times theology since the early 1800s is marked with speculation. If Govett’s point is that Christians should love God and obey him, he’s preaching nothing new. But, if his point is that there are two types of Christians in the millennial kingdom, he’s preaching is errant.

  42. I’ve read this entire blog, and I’d like to say that this posting is really not for you Mark, I’m posting it for those that may want to know more and decide for their own. Thank you.

    God is a Trinity – God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. This is manifested in Mathew 3:16 and 17 after Jesus was baptized. After being baptized, He “went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: and lo a voice from heaven saying ‘This is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased.’ ” Here we have God the Son standing by the river, God the Holy Spirit descending upon Him, and God the Father speaking from heaven.

    Man was created in the likeness and image of God. God created man as a Triune being made up exactly as we are told in 1 Thessalonians 5:23, as others have referenced already. Man consists of Body and Soul and Spirit.

    Here is how salvation applies to each:

    SPIRIT – Salvation of the spirit of man is a free gift of God. Just as a gift that we give to someone, it is only free to the recipient. The gift is paid for in full, but paid for by the one giving the gift. Salvation of the spirit of man was paid for by the perfect works and the perfect obedience of God the Son to the perfect will of God the Father. The will of God the Father in respect to man was to sacrifice His Son who was, is and shall always be the ONLY sinless and perfect sacrifice for the sins of all mankind. Without it, salvation is impossible. The price for salvation of the spirit of man was paid in full forever on the cross.

    Everything about Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior’s time on this earth, was to lead up to His death and the shedding of His Blood as this innocent and perfect sacrifice for the spirit of man. Remember, any blood sacrifice will not do when it comes to the forgiveness of sin. Only the shedding of innocent and sinless (without spot or blemish) blood can bring about God’s forgiveness and our salvation from sin and death.
    1 Corinthians 15:22 tells us that the entire human race is guilty of sin through progeneration by the seed of the man – “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” This means that the blood of man is not suitable as a sacrifice even for our own salvation. Hebrews 10:4 tells us “it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins” and these sacrifices did nothing more than to set aside the sins of the Jew revealing to us the precept of the requirement of the shedding of innocent blood and that the Old Testament sacrifices were all pointing to the One True Sacrifice, that of Jesus Christ.

    In and of ourselves, mankind can do nothing at all to bring about the salvation of our Spirit. But just as when someone comes to us with a gift and we reach out physically and take possession, we must reach out spiritually and take possession of this free gift of spirit salvation that God has paid for and provided for us. If we do not take possession of the gift in either instance, the gift is un-received and the payment wasted. Thus we have the justification for God’s harsh dealings with the lost.

    SOUL – Our Soul is the LIFE of our body. The salvation of our soul stands seperate from the Spirit. Salvation of our souls is dependent on our OWN works and our OWN obedience to the will of God the Father through Jesus Christ our Lord. It differs from Spirit Salvation in that when our spirits are saved through acceptance of the free gift, We are no longer a ruined creation. We are restored to the place of Adam and Eve in the Garden before they sinned against God. Just as Adam and Eve were tested for obedience in the Garden of Eden (“But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”) to qualify to be able to rule over God’s creation, we are tested in many ways each and every day in our Christian life for the same reason as above, to qualify to rule with Christ from the heavens. Sometimes we are faithful and our perfect and forgiven spirit (which wants to please God) wins, sometimes we are not faithful and obedient to the will of God and the sinful nature of our soul wins causing us to commit sin. Christ, the head of the Church, was, is and will always be sinless in every way. This is required to qualify as the perfect (without spot or blemish) sacrifice for our sins. We are to strive to be like Him, but we cannot. The works, actions and obedience of each Christian will be different as will the rewards received at the coming judgment of the Church by Jesus Christ Himself.

    In essence, this is the constant battle Paul speaks of in Galatians 5:17 – “For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.” It’s the life of the flesh or body, (the soul) and the knowledge of these truths that Paul describes to the Christians in Romans Chapter 7 culminating with his soulful cry in Romans 7:24 – “O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” Though Paul was saved he knew that his body was still a sinful body, the life (soul) of which lusted and strived to cause him to do the things he did not want to do in his spirit.

    BODY – Every person, whether Christian or Non-Christian, was conceived into a body of sin and death. This condition continues even after spirit salvation. Each Christian will be judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ based on how well we were able to overcome, after we were saved, the 3 enemies of God and of Christians. Those 3 things are the World, the Flesh, and the Devil with the former two being controlled in varying degrees by the latter. The flesh is the Body and the Soul is the life of the body. Together they make up one of the three things that enables us to be found in the group the Word of God calls Overcomers. Unless we are tempted we cannot be victorious and overcome. That we are tempted is readily apparent in Romans 6:12 – “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.” And in Romans 8:10 – “And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.”

    So, when will this all change? When will our bodies receive “salvation”? Our mortal corrupt bodies of flesh and blood will not. We are told in 1 Corinthians 15:52 that “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” Our mortal bodies are made of the dust of this earth and shall return to it. We will, however, receive new bodies. This is what we are told in the last 9 verses of 1 Corinthians 15:51 through 15:58. These bodies will be different. They will be Spiritual bodies and will replace the mortal bodies of our earthly existence. After we are raised incorruptible, there will be no more satanic influence on us. We will be free of Satan, the world and of their influence. Up until this time, the Spirit of those saved through the gift of Eternal Salvation is alive and cannot be touched by Satan, but at the same time the mortal body and the soul (which is the life of the mortal body) are still dead in sin and subject to Satan’s influence. Our obedience to Him during this Christian life and our ability to overcome the influences of the soul and the body will be the center of our judgment at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

    Those that are able to withstand the negative influence of these 3 forces during their Christian life are referenced in Revelation 2:26 Christ says – “And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the Nations:” These are those Christians that will qualify for positions in the coming Kingdom of Christ. You cannot refute the fact that Christ will share His Kingdom Rule with qualifying Christians and say that you believe the Bible is God’s Word because this is exactly what’s said in Revelation 3:21 – “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.”. The basis for our judgement will be our obedience just as Christ was obedient.

    As far as entrance into the Kingdom of God and of Christ, the word “Kingdom” is translated from the Greek word basileia. Strong’s Concordance tells us that the word does not refer to an actual, physical kingdom, but rather to the power and the authority to rule over a kingdom. It refers to the royal power and authority of Jesus Christ in His kingdom and this power and authority is what He will share an entrance into with those that prepare themselves and qualify themselves for one of the positions. Those that do not, will not share in this authority. They will not participate.

    Their Spirits however, are saved forever and they will be changed “at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”. This new spiritual body is a promise of God to all that accept the sacrifice of His Son and is solely dependant on the salvation of the spirit.

    1. So, our spirits are saved through the works and obedience of Jesus Christ to God the Father.

    2. Our soul is saved through our own works and obedience to God the Father through Jesus Christ and made possible by 1 above.

    3. Our bodies will be changed to incorruptable spiritual bodies in a future day, is a promise of God and is soley dependent on 1 above.

    4. Entrance into the Kingdom (rulership – sharing in authority) is soley based on 2 above. Those that overcome will share, those that ARE overcome will not share.

    There is so much more to this. The Holy Spirit plays a major role in 2 above. To get started on how this is true, start here:
    John 16:13 “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.”

    We should all ask the Holy Spirit to guide us and to reveal to us the truth of what the Word of God says. Because “he will guide you into all truth”. Not part of the truth, but ALL OF THE TRUTH. God’s word is spiritually understood and is taught to us by the Holy Spirit and given to each of us through Him.

  43. Some readers will object to your assertion, rg, that salvation is “dependent on our OWN works and our OWN obedience.” You will claim that this type of salvation is limited to the soul, but, nonetheless, it is still salvation by works. How Christ can die completely for a person, and yet not save a person entirely by grace is unexplained.

  44. Many most definitely will reject what I have written just as you already have. It happens all the time. I make no “claims”, however, I just write the truth as the Holy Spirit has taught me. Accept it or don’t. I have no control over that. It’s up to the Holy Spirit to reveal.

    At the same time, the Holy Spirit could open the eyes and hearts of others that read it to the opportunity all Christians have to obtain an abundant entrance into the Kingdom (Authority) of Jesus Christ in that future day. Just as referenced in 2 Peter 1:11 – “For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.” The previous verses, however, put conditions upon this entrance as follows:

    In 2 Peter 1:1 to 1:11 Peter states in the very beginning that he is writing to saved individuals: “to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ”

    Verse 4 states: “Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.” Notice the words “might be partakers”. The Greek word for “ye might be” is ginomai and is in the subjunctive mood. The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances. This signifies that a Christian could fail to be “partakers”.

    After this, the next few verses add 6 traits that a Christian should strive to attain AFTER one obtains Faith (Spirit salvation) in the Lord Jesus. Faith is listed first and MUST come first, then the others are added to faith. Those that do attain these traits shall be made “neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.”. But what about those that do not attain these things? Remember, Peter is speaking to saved individuals. In verse 9 Peter tell us: “he (Christians mind you) that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.” So, here we have the truth that one can be saved, but be “blind” and thus become one described in verse 8.

    Verse 10 says: “Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:”

    Salvation of the Spirit is eternal through the eternal power of God. Nothing can change this. The only thing a Christian can fail in is obtaining an abundant entrance into the Kingdom (Remember the word basileia, sharing in the authority of Jesus the Christ in His Kingdom) and this is why it is so important to separate the soul and the spirit of man and keep them separate. Even in the realm of salvation. If you don’t, then things get very confused (Satan loves confusion in doctrine) and one can be led astray from the truth.

    I know many, such as yourself, that shun these truths. It’s just a shame that the light won’t come on until they are standing before the Lord Jesus Christ. Then, It’ll be too late.

  45. Mark, I will make one other comment. For years now, many have been combining the spirit and the soul of man with the teaching that they are the same thing. This is not scriptural and combining the two leads to the exact belief that you have which leads to salvation by works.

    Salvation is not of works and that is very plainly stated in the Word of God. But works and obedience to the will of God are relevant to entrance into the Kingdom. If you say that the gift of salvation applies to man as a whole, then you are combining soul and spirit / works and grace respectively.

  46. rg,

    None of the scriptures you cite say “soul salvation” is conditional.

    Also, gaining reward in the afterlife is not the same as being saved/redeemed.


  47. I pastor a small non-denominational church in Sarasota, FL. About a year ago a couple started attending the church, having been to many other churches in the area, but not “fitting” with any of them. Often during studies the man has injected opinions about what he calls “Soul Winning” that is from a position I do not agree with, he believes that the soul of a believer needs to be saved by the righteous works of that believer because it was not redeemed at the time of the persons salvation. He and I had an exchange about this issue, he informs me that he is a follower of Arlen L. Chitwood, and has been for over two decades. I have looked for and found many of Chitwood’s writings, and I believe them to be heretical.

    Now I am in the process of revealing the truth about Chitwood’s error and heresy. I am being told I am off track and lack understanding of the whole truth

    Thank you for the work and diligent effort to refute this falsehood.

    Please continue with your site and effort to shine the light of truth on this false teaching of a false Christ.

  48. I have read Govett years ago. He is quite legalistic and even specifies who will be in the kingdom and who won’t.It was very Victorian. Things like People who had divorced and remarried, people who had children out of wedlock things like that.It was so dated and so Victorian British in nature and lacking in grace that I knew it was not for me.

  49. I have read Govett’s writings years ago. They are very Victorian British.He even specifies who will be in the kingdom and who won’t. If I can recall it was things like no one who is divorced and remarried and no one who has a child out of wedlock. Because of the complete lack of an understanding of grace I rejected the kingdom exclusion teaching.

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