Are black people cursed?

On the “Hamitic curse” —

Because Ham was the father of black people, and because he and his descendants were cursed to be slaves because of his sin against Noah, some Christians said, “Africans and their descendants are destined to be servants, and should accept their status as slaves in fulfillment of biblical prophecy.”

I knew that something did not sound right about the curse of Ham theory when I first heard it as a teenager. A white minister was giving me the biblical reason why my people and I had to endure the humiliation of American racism. Because I couldn’t prove otherwise and because my favorite Bible, the famous Old Schofield Reference Bible, which had become the official version of American fundamentalism, endorsed the curse of Ham theory, I had little recourse other than to accept it. After all, those promoting it were “trained” in the Bible and theology at the finest fundamentalist institutions in our country-institutions, by the way, that at that time would not allow blacks to enroll as students. With the endorsement of the Old Schofield Bible, coupled with the legal status of American segregation, the myth was firmly established and embedded in the American psyche.

Read the full article by Tony Evans here: Are Black People Cursed? The Curse of Ham.

© 2009, Mark Adams. All rights reserved.

75 thoughts on “Are black people cursed?

  1. “But those Christians who are unfaithful (Matt. 25:28-30) will have their rewards taken from them and given to those who were faithful, and, and they will be cast into “outer darkness,” the place where there shall be “weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The “outer darkness” described in this passage is not a description of hell, but is likely a lesser status in God’s kingdom. Unfaithful Christians will see more diligent Christians rule and reign with Christ. Seeing that they could have had much greater reward and prominence in God’s kingdom, these unfaithful stewards will weep and gnash their teeth in deep remorse and regret.” — Tony Evans

  2. Kevin,

    You will need to provide source information for this quote. Otherwise, I will have to delete it. There is more than one Tony Evans on the Internet, and I’ve not seen this quote properly attributed to the man who wrote “Are Blacks Cursed?”.

    Dr. Evans’ church website is located here: http://www.ocbfchurch.org/

    I can tell you immediately that I probably don’t agree with all of his views, but that’s not the point. I linked to this article to focus on the question of whether blacks are cursed, as A. Edwin Wilson believed.

    On that subject, do you believe blacks are cursed?

  3. That isn’t a proper attribution. If I can’t verify the text, I will have to delete your comment. Not because I object to its content (I hold quite the opposite theologically), but because your attribution does not meet academic standards.

    Also, do you believe blacks are cursed?

  4. I can give much more (check page 232 of Tony Evans book: Totally Saved):

    “A third consequence of spiritual failure is disinheritance in the coming kingdom of heaven. Jesus said in Matthew 8:12 that the sons of the kingdom were cast in outer darkness at the start of the kingdom banquet. That is, they were not admitted to the banquet to enjoy this thousand-year party called the kingdom. They’re still saved people, but they are the ones whose works are burned up at the judgment seat of Christ and so they have nothing to present to Him from their time on earth.”

    Totally Saved: Understanding, Experiencing and Enjoying the Greatness of Your Salvation, 232.

    Author: Tony Evans
    Publisher: Moody Press, 2002
    ISBN0802468195, 9780802468192
    Length: 400 pages

    About the Author: Tony Evans is the senior pastor of Oak Cliff Bible Fellowship in Dallas. { i.e. http://www.ocbfchurch.org }

    …You can search it on Amazon — just type “outer darkness” in their “Search Inside This Book” option.

    http://www.amazon.com/Totally-Saved-Tony-Evans/dp/0802468241

    A for your question, I believe that the descendants of Canaan are presently under a curse (whatever their skin color is) and that the Jew’s are presently under a curse.

  5. ERRATA POSTSCRIPT:

    “As for your question”

    …Sorry, if I do post again, then I’ll try to slow down (in order to prevent spelling errors).

  6. “I believe that the descendants of Canaan are presently under a curse (whatever their skin color is) and that the Jew’s are presently under a curse.”

    You should read Tony Evans’ article more carefully. As you are more in agreement with him regarding the coming judgment than I, you should be more in agreement with him regarding race… and I’m in total agreement with him on the race question!

  7. I read that article (which you posted by Tony Evans) years ago and I’m not sure what you’re getting at, but I’m neither anti-Shem-itic, anti-Canaan-itic, anti-Ham-itic, nor anti-Japheth-itic. I’m a pro-all-families-of-the-earth-itic.

    “Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.”

    “And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day. And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers”

    “And the LORD said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows; And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites.”

    “This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.”

    “And at the second time Joseph was made known to his brethren”

    “So he sent his brethren away, and they departed: and he said unto them, See that ye fall not out by the way. And they went up out of Egypt, and came into the land of Canaan unto Jacob their father, And told him, saying, Joseph is yet alive, and he is governor over all the land of Egypt.”

    “And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying, Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee. So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD.”

    “Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.”

    “When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days still in the same place where he was. Then after that saith he to his disciples, Let us go into Judaea again.”

  8. I’ll say this much: where truth exists, it must be reckoned with. It’s like reading the Early Church Fathers – they said a lot of things that were theologically sound. They also said things that were not, and we must discern the difference between the two by our only infallible source for truth: the Scriptures.

    Even if Tony Evans subscribes to some variation of KE, the fact that Mr. Evans categorically denies that the so-called “Hamitic Curse” is biblically sound, shows us that even within the KE-ist camp – if he is to be considered one – there is disagreement on the matter.

    It also shows that KE doesn’t necessarily lead to the sort of racism displayed by Chitwood. I will say, though, that “error begets error,” and although KE doesn’t necessarily produce racists, it will produce other errant, unorthodox beliefs.

    Of course, all of us have errors in our theology – no one is perfect. I believe that by humble submission to the Scriptures, and by listening to the voices of our brothers in sisters in church history who have, too, struggled with these theological issues, can we keep our errant beliefs in check. As I said in another post on this blog: some errors have more devastating effects than others. I believe that KE is a devastating error, and by wholly embracing this theology, one is open to embracing other blatant and unorthodox errors.

    In Chitwood’s case, it was this “biblically-based” racism. For Tony Evans, it’s probably something else (and given the book reviews from his “Totally Saved” Amazon listing, he has some other significant doctrinal errors!).

  9. That any people is cursed on account of race is just utterly repulsive. I’m having a hard time believing that I’m even debating the subject at all. The “Hamitic curse” theory has been so thoroughly repudiated, it’s astonishing that even a minority of theologians advance it. It’s a wicked and evil theory that ultimately leads to hatred of God.

    “Whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.” — 1 John 2:11

  10. Kevin, you are being too clever by far. You wrote, “I believe that the descendants of Canaan are presently under a curse (whatever their skin color is) and that the Jew’s are presently under a curse.” I don’t know how you define race, but the current definition is “a group of persons related by common descent or heredity.” Race is the underlying assumption of the Hamitic curse — did you read Wilson’s chapter?

    “Integration, of which we hear so much today, is an effort to take two or more parts and fuse them into one, to integrate the colored race and white race through marriage, amalgamation, and assimilation, and to reduce the two groups (colored and white) to one group. Anyone who knows God’s plan and purpose concerning the human race can see the hand of Satan behind all this.”

    I wish Chitwood would disavow such sentiments for your sake! Then, perhaps you wouldn’t feel so inclined to defend the theory of the Hamitic curse. It’s not even integral to the Word of the Kingdom.

  11. You said “cursed on account of race”, Wilson, quotes Murphy, in stating something very different:

    “Let us not imagine, however, that the ways of the Lord are not equal in this matter; for Canaan and his descendants no doubt abundantly deserved this special visitation”.

    I’m not defending Wilson (his writings are his defense), nor do I agree with all of his views!

    For example, I disagree with the way his article uses the following Scripture:

    “When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.” (Deuteronomy 32:8 AV)

    Most LXX manuscripts don’t read “children [lit. sons] of Israel”, but “angels of God”, and many others, “sons of God”, which, when compared to the 4QDtq (a Qumran manuscript) would suggest the Masoretic reading is wrong.

    My version of the Septuagint states the following:

    ὅτε διεμέριζεν ὁ ὕψιστος ἔθνη ὡς διέσπειρεν υἱοὺς αδαμ ἔστησεν ὅρια ἐθνῶν κατὰ ἀριθμὸν ἀγγέλων θεοῦ καὶ ἐγενήθη μερὶς κυρίου λαὸς αὐτοῦ ιακωβ σχοίνισμα κληρονομίας αὐτοῦ ισραηλ

    “When the Highest divided into parts the nations as He disseminated the sons of Adam, He set the borders of nations according to the number of the angels of God; and His people Jacob became a portion for the LORD Israel is a piece of measured out land of His inheritance.”
    -Deuteronomy 32:8,9

    This would line up perfectly with Psalm 96:5

    ὅτι πάντες οἱ θεοὶ τῶν ἐθνῶν δαιμόνια ὁ δὲ κύριος τοὺς οὐρανοὺς ἐποίησεν

    “For all of the gods of the nations are demons; but the LORD made the heavens”

    Shem’s God isn’t a demon though (like the other nations):

    “Blessed be the LORD God of Shem”… …”Aram”… …”Shem”… …”Arphaxad”… …”Shelah”… …”Eber”… …”Peleg”… …”Reu”… …”Serug”… …Nahor”… …”Terah”… …”Abram”… …”Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed” (Genesis 9-12)

    I’m done.

  12. Oops:

    “Blessed be the LORD God of Shem”… …”Arphaxad”… …”Salah”… …”Eber”… …”Peleg”… …”Reu”… …”Serug”… …”Nahor”… …”Terah”… …”Abram”… …”Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed” (Genesis 9-12)

  13. Kevin, I don’t think you get it. No one cares if you disagree with Wilson on certain petty matters. We’re talking about the substance of his argument, which was that blacks and whites should not integrate because blacks were cursed by God. You’re arguing over manuscripts and nuances of language?

    If you are not addressing the subject, the Hamitic curse, you are off topic. Please stay on topic.

  14. Galatians 3:13 “Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”)”

    Deuteronomy 21:23 “his body shall not remain overnight on the tree, but you shall surely bury him that day, so that you do not defile the land which the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance; for he who is hanged is accursed of God.”

    Whatever perpetual curse may have been upon the Hamitic race (or any other) was borne by Christ on the cross. End if discussion as far as I’m concerned!

    One of the major errors in KE theology is failing to recognize how much changed after the death and resurrection of Christ which is surprising in that they are dispensationalists!

    Another major flaw is their flimsy claim that works have nothing to do with the salvation of the soul.

    Hmmm… If the Spirit does it all then it is completely His responsibility. So why would God hold me responsible for His own failing?

    But if I must in any way help the Spirit in the saving my soul (even if that “help” is nothing more than maintaining a “proper attitude”) then it is works-based soul salvation. There is just no getting around that.

    Yet ANOTHER big flaw is that KE is fear-based theology. In their system I have absolutely no way of knowing at exactly what point in my life my soul has been “completely saved” so as to escape being cast into the outer darkness. So I am doomed to live my whole life in the fear that “something” isn’t completed.

    Now take that fear-based servitude into the KE “playing field” of OT type/antitypes. The Jewish Feast of Weeks (Pentecost) is a picture of the birth of the church. Note that it involves a FREEWILL ONLY offering (Deuteronomy 16:10) on the part of those celebrating it. Freewill giving and fear are NOT compatible!

    God only wants us to CHOOSE to reciprocate His for love us. Love and fear are also not compatible.

    I would beg my KE brothers and sisters to stop wasting their lives on this errant theology. 100% of your accountability was nailed to the cross and the yoke of its burden was lifted from your shoulders when God raised Christ from the dead.

    Peace to you all,

    DaveO

  15. Arlen,

    I visited your “What we beleive” page. (thekingdomoftheheavens [dot]org/what_we_believe.htm) I have a question about one of the statements there. To wit:

    “Only those that overcome the flesh, world and the Devil make up the bride of Christ.”

    How can I know when I have “overcome” enough to be counted as worthy of being part of the Bride of Christ?

    Presuming that you yourself have “overcome” enough, (how is irrelevant for now) please tell me, at what point in your Christian walk did you come into this realization?

    How did this realization occur?

    Or is this needed amount of “overcoming” a wait-and-see type of thing that one only finds out for certain on judgment day?

    (sorry this is a bit of-topic but Arlen posted here)

  16. DaveO,
    It is good to know you as a brother in Christ.

    I’ll answer your questions, but if you wish to discuss anything further I would prefer you to email me.

    “How can I know when I have “overcome” enough to be counted as worthy of being part of the Bride of Christ?”

    :You will not no until the Judgement Seat of Christ; you will not lose your salvation, and no Christian will ever be cast into The Lake of Fire, or ever be “excluded” from the Millennial Kingdom. Remember you asked me, so their is no need to take a jab at A. Chitwood. We have all seen the (metaphor) he uses, that has been taken out of context by others.

    “Presuming that you yourself have “overcome” enough”

    :I am not claiming, nor do I know that I have over-come anything. I walk through this world a failer in every way, sometimes I win a battle, and alot of the time I lose a battle; but I walk by faith, and not by sight. I hope to be an over-comer, but I’m not sure until I stand before our Lord, Christ Jesus. But I am sure of one thing, The work Christ said was finished, is finished, and that work can never be un-done. I am as saved as I’ll ever be through and by the finished work of Christ! But thats not what your question is about; we work to obtain (to be granted) the wedding garment. Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to him: for the marriage
    of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
    19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen,
    clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
    We don’t make ourselves ready for eternal salvation, Jesus already did that for us, and we can’t add to, take away, or blemish His finished work. But we must prepare (make ourselves ready) to be granted to ware this wedding garment in Rev. 19. We’re not dealing with “exclusion” or a “works based salvation”, we’re dealing with a reward, or loss of reward; ref 1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall
    receive a reward.
    3:15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he
    himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. “Kingdom Exclusion” does not exist, all believers will be in the Millennium, but not all will be part of the Bride.

    “please tell me, at what point in your Christian walk did you come into this realization?”

    :I was saved in November of 1999, and I have belonged to an Independent Baptist church sense I was saved; so I’m not easily fooled by doctrine, and I’m fundemental in my teaching. In November 2007 a man asked me if I new the difference in the soul, and the spirit. My reply was “well I know they’re not the same”, and that is when the light turned on for me. I realized that the soul was the life of a man, or woman, and the spirit was what allowed us to live with the Lord forever, and understand the Lord’s Word and His will for our life, and the future of our life in the Millennium.

    You mentioned the types earlier, so you must be a reasonable man; look at Adam as a type of Christ, and Eve as a type of the Bride of Christ. God took a small portion of Adam’s body (a single rib) and built Adam a bride, and then presented that bride to Adam. All believers make the Body of Christ, and Jesus is the head of that body. Now you know as well as I do that their is alot of Christians that don’t act like they’re Christian at all. I know what the Baptist would say about those people, they would say ” well if they were really saved they wouldn’t act like that”. That is a foolish thing to say sense only God knows who is saved and who is lost. But we still have an old sin nature that we must over-come, and not give into. Paul said he had to die daily, and Paul also said in Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not,
    that I do.
    7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that
    dwelleth in me.
    The old sin nature is what Paul had to over-come, and that is what we must over-come; the old sin nature that still dwells in our very being (soul or life) is what we must over-come.

    I answered your question, even if it is not the answer you were looking for, or is not the same as your theology that is fine, I respect your right to your own interpretation, and I hope that you can respect mine.

    If you would have anymore questions, or discussion for me,I would appreciate it if you would email me personaly. I have nothing to hide, and everything about me is out there for you see.

    P.S. I have three question for you: In your interpretation;

    1. What is the loss in 1 Cor. 3:14,15.

    2. What is going to happen to those that don’t present their bodies as a living sacrifce holy, and acceptable unto God, which is our resonable service as believers? As Paul said in Romans 12:1.

    3. What will happen to those that do not deny themselves, and take up their cross and follow Jesus? As mentioned in Matthew 16:24

    I ask these questions with respect to you, and not sarcasm.

    Arlen Banks

  17. Given the magnitude of the subject, it is perhaps best to answer these other questions elsewhere. The focus of this thread is the “Hamitic curse,” which Tony Evans eloquently refutes. Please restrict conversation to the subject at hand.

  18. DaveO,
    As you can see the admin of this sight does not like answers that contradict his views, so I must respect his wishes. I only answered the questions you asked me directly, and I’ve been asked to stay on the subject of the admin’s article, or take it to another forum; even though the previous comments had nothing to do with the admin’s article.

    Next time you wish to ask me a question, please come to my web site forum, or ask me by email, and you will be welcomed to a none-biased environment.
    Thank you!

    Arlen Banks

  19. I apoligize to the admin; I didn’t realize I was in another forum with DaveO. My answer was to his question above; that has been a discussion on Agabus. I said in my last comment ” even though the previous comments had nothing to do with the admin’s article” , was incorrect on my part and I apoligize to the admin, and also the readers.

    Arlen Banks

  20. Thank you for the courtesy Arlen.

    And my apologies also to the Admin for taking this waaaaay past topic. I will take this elsewhere.

    DaveO

  21. Is this, a sincere article for the African American?

    I agree with the author of this article on racism. It should not, and can not be tolerated! But my question is this: Is this a sincere article for the African American by the author? Or is this a selfish plan of deception to draw the readers of KE, and Agabus dot com to the views of the Author (Admin) of both forums? It would be a fair assessment to say, the readers would like to see both sides of A.E. Wilson’s “Sons of Noah”.
    Before I post paragraphs from A.E. Wilson’s “Sons of Noah” I want to say that I don’t agree with every word that Wilson has to say on the subject, but as a servant of God I must look at these paragraphs as a spiritual interpretation of history from The Word of God, and not the history of man in the last few hundred years. Also, you will see A.E. Wilson’s interpretation was not to promote segregation of the races, but to show the Biblical past, present and future events in the spiritual eyes of God’s plan, that no man or woman can undo. Racism is evil, slavery is evil, segregation is evil; but the author of “Are Blacks Cursed” has ignored the context of Wilson’s “Sons of Noah”. The context is dealing with Gentiles descending from Ham, and Japheth, and the descendants of Shem, which are Israelites, and their past, present and future existence. You as a believer in Christ must realize you are a Christian now and no longer a Gentile, or Israelite. The blessings for the Christian are different when the Lord comes for you; but the Gentile and Israel have a different blessing, and cursing in the Millennium. You that are of the Gentile race (descendants of Ham, or Japheth), no matter your color are no longer a Gentile if you have believed in Jesus Christ as savior, you are a Christian now in the eyes of God. Also, you that were born an Israelite (descendants of Shem), are no longer an Israelite, you’re a Christian. My point is this, Wilson is not dealing with “racism”, or “promoting “racism”! You will see in the paragraphs below from Wilson’s writings that he himself believes it to be evil.

    A.E. Wilson’s “Sons of Noah”

    “‘A servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.’ The curse here consists of servitude, which is, in itself, an inferiority, and among the children of self-will, tends more and more to all the horrid ills of slavery. Slavery originated in war and conquest. The mere warrior put the captives to death; the cannibal devoured them; the economist fed them for their labor.
    Accordingly, slavery soon made its appearance in all countries which were trodden by the conqueror, A system of slavery, imposed without consent and for no crime, is a dire evil. Besides the direct injustice of robbing a fellowman of his personal liberty, it dissolves wedlock, breaks the family tie, and disregards the conscience. It trades, therefore, in the souls as well as the bodies of men. It is a historical fact that the degradation of slavery has fallen especially upon the race of Ham. A portion of the Canaanites became bondsmen among the Israelites, who were of the race of Shem. The early Babylonians, the Phoenicians, the Carthaginians, and Egyptians, who all belonged to the race of Ham, were subjugated by the Assyrians, who were Shemites; [and they were subjugated by] the Persians, the Macedonians, and the Romans, who were all Japhethites. And in modern times, it is well known that most of the nations of Europe traded in African slaves. A servant of servants means a slave of the most abject kind. Unto his brethren: If the doom of slavery be referred to the race of Ham, then his brethren are the descendants of Japheth and Shem, who have held many of the Hamites in bondage. If we limit the sentence to Canaan, then his brethren may include the descendants of Ham. It is said that the servile tribe is also the most tyrannical; and it is a fact that the Africans have lent themselves to the forcible seizing and selling into slavery in distant lands of their own kinsmen and fellow-countrymen.”

    Once again, I ask the readers of “Are black people cursed?”, and the other articles that follow by the author as well, to ask your self this question.

    Is this, a sincere article for the African American? Or is this a selfish plan of deception to draw the readers of KE, and Agabus dot com to the views of the Author (Admin) of both forums?

    If it is, then that is surely racism!

    Arlen Banks

  22. Frankly, I don’t know how to take you seriously, Arlen.

    Wilson wrote “The Sons of Noah” in direct response to Billy Graham’s call for desegregation, both in the church and in society. Here’s Wilson’s reply:

    “Integration, of which we hear so much today, is an effort to take two or more parts and fuse them into one, to integrate the colored race and white race through marriage, amalgamation, and assimilation, and to reduce the two groups (colored and white) to one group. Anyone who knows God’s plan and purpose concerning the human race can see the hand of Satan behind all this.”

    This isn’t “what the Bible says” but a vulgar utterance from a profane man. I can’t read his book without being sickened. If you can’t see racism in Wilson’s words, I pity you.

  23. I think it should be noted that the curse was put upon Canaan by his own father, not God. Nowhere in the text does it even imply that God in any way sanctioned Noah to do that. In other words Noah never says anything like:

    “Thus saith the Lord: ‘Cursed art thou’….”

    Nowhere in the Bible does it say or imply that it was a curse lasting forever or any other specified amount of time past the lifetime of Canaan.

    Furthermore there is no irrefutable proof that Black Africans even ARE the descendants of Ham. It is simply assumed which is always dangerous.

    In my opinion (to which I’m entitled) the slavery imposed on Black Africans is nothing more than yet another example of man’s inhumanity to man. Another example of the consequences of the sins of pride and greed.

    DaveO

  24. DaveO,

    DID GOD SPEAK THROUGH NOAH?

    “If God did not speak through Noah, how do we know He spoke through Abraham? If God did not speak through Noah, how do we know He spoke through Isaac? If God did not speak through Noah, how do we know He spoke through Jacob, especially when Jacob pronounced the blessings and curses upon his twelve sons as recorded in Genesis 49? If God did not speak through Noah, how do we know He spoke through Moses? If God did not speak through Noah, how do we know He spoke through Aaron? If God did not speak through Noah, how do we know He spoke through Joshua? If God did not speak through Noah, how do we know He spoke through Gideon? If God did not speak through Noah, how do we know He spoke through Naomi and Ruth? If God did not speak through Noah, how do we know He spoke through Samuel? If God did not speak through Noah, how do we know He spoke through Elijah and Elisha? If God did not speak through Noah, how do we know He spoke through David?
    If God did not speak through Noah, how do we know He spoke through Isaiah? If God did not speak through Noah, how do we know He spoke through Jeremiah? If God did not speak through Noah, how do we know He spoke through Ezekiel? If God did not speak through
    Noah, how do we know He spoke through Daniel? If God did not speak through Noah, how do we know He spoke through Hosea? If God did not speak through Noah, how do we know He spoke through Amos? If God did not speak through Noah, how do we know He spoke through Obadiah? If God did not speak through Noah, how do we know He spoke through Jonah? If
    God did not speak through Noah, how do we know He spoke through Micah? If God did not speak through Noah, how do we know He spoke through Nahum? If God did not speak through Noah, how do we know He spoke through Habakkuk? If God did not speak through
    Noah, how do we know He spoke through Zephaniah? If God did not speak through Noah, how do we know He spoke through Haggai? If God did not speak through Noah, how do we know He spoke through Zechariah? If God did not speak through Noah, how do we know He spoke through Malachi?
    If God did not speak through Noah, how do we know He spoke through Matthew? If God did not speak through Noah, how do we know He spoke through Mark? If God did not speak through Noah, how do we know He spoke through John? If God did not speak through Noah, how do we know He spoke through Paul? If God did not speak through Noah, how do we know He spoke through Peter? If God did not speak through Noah, how do we know He spoke through James? If God did not speak through Noah, how do we know He spoke through Jude?
    If God did not speak through Noah, through whom did He speak?”

    The Subject of Wilson’s “Sons of Noah” can be found at the beginning of the chapter. The subject is not “racism”, the subject is someone qestioning the inspired Word of God. “CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT.”

  25. No one is questioning whether God spoke to Noah. Wilson’s opening argument is a red herring. What’s being question is the so-called Hamitic curse, a doctrine found nowhere in scripture (not even in Gen. 9), a doctrine never advanced by Christ or his disciples.

    The Hamitic curse was used singularly to oppress Africans. That is the context.

    Good grief, Arlen, do you really believe there is a biblical argument for calling the civil rights movement a work of Satan?

  26. Areln — What tree are you barking up. Look, the man said he didn’t like integration. Those are his words. HIS words. If this isn’t racism… what is?

  27. Admin,

    “The Hamitic curse was used singularly to oppress Africans. That is the context.”

    Are you saying that Wilson said this?

    Or is this your opinion?

    This is a quote from Wilson in the very writing you have drawn your article from.

    A.E. Wilson:

    “The curse here consists of servitude, which is, in itself, an inferiority, and among the children of self-will, tends more and more to all the horrid ills of slavery. Slavery originated in war and conquest. The mere warrior put the captives to death; the cannibal devoured them; the economist fed them for their labor.
    Accordingly, slavery soon made its appearance in all countries which were trodden by the conqueror, A system of slavery, imposed without consent and for no crime, is a dire evil.” NOTICE WILSON SAYS IT IS EVIL.

    Also one could arue that your article has nothing to do with the Hamitic curse. If your article was sincere, you would show other religious writers from other doctrines of Christendom. Instead, you only point to those that teach “The Word of The Kingdom”.

    I again ask the readers; “Is this, a sincere article for the African American? Or is this a selfish plan of deception to draw the readers of KE, and Agabus dot com to the views of the Author (Admin) of both forums?”

    P.S. A quote from Mark Adams: “Good grief, Arlen, do you really believe there is a biblical argument for calling the civil rights movement a work of Satan?”

    My answer is NO!

    These are the words of Mark Adams “Cilvil rights”. No where does Wilson say such in the writings in question. Wilson implies that slavery, and anything to do with slavery is “EVIL”.

    It is transparent, and obvious that the Author of “Are black people cursed” is not telling the entire story. I pity someone who would use such tactics, and show such disrespect, for African Americans, to help their own personal agenda.

  28. Wilson:

    “Intermarriage between the different races leads to degeneration, rather than progress and development. The revolution being carried on today under the leadership of Satan, aided and abetted by religionists, is Satan’s attempt to destroy the human race and thereby hinder and prevent, if possible, the establishment of the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.”

    I’ll leave it to the reader to decide what Wilson means by “revolution.”

  29. arlen: although you’ve given quotations that show us wilson’s beliefs/feelings toward slavery, you have yet to interact with the quotations mark provided showing wilson’s utter disregard for racial integration. do you see no connection between his pushing the “hamatic curse” doctrine and his abhorrence for racial integration?

    also, you’re rather long diatribe on God speaking through Noah – two things. 1) there are many instances in scripture where some person does an evil act. does God necessarily endorse that act? of course not. the scriptures neither endorse nor condemn noah’s words toward Canaan. dogmatism regarding the direct cause of noah’s words should be tempered by this fact. 2) your slippery slope argumentation fails completely. God interacts with his creation in many ways, ensuring his providence is perfectly accomplished. so God didn’t necessarily audibly speak through noah, but given how history played out between the descendant nations of noah’s sons, there obviously was something else in play here besides noah getting mad at this children.

    even so, just b/c God may speak through a factually false statement made by men (e.g., 1 Kings 22) to accomplish His ends, doesn’t mean the lie itself is good or should be endorsed.

  30. Arlen,

    Please calm down. There was no need for you write all that stuff to me. I think you know very well that I never meant to imply that God NEVER spoke through Noah. That’s just silly.

    But I still insist that there is no scriptural evidence that God told Noah to curse Ham. (He may or may not have, the bible does not say) Further there is no scriptural evidence that the curse was perpetual. In fact the one bit of evidence we do have suggests that it did in fact expire:

    Joshua 9:23 (speaking to Canaanites)”Now therefore, you are cursed…”

    The word “Now” there is from the Hebrew “‛attah” which means:

    at this time, (whether adverbial, conjugational or expletive): – henceforth, now, straightway, this time, whereas.

    This implies that if Noah’s curse was still in effect then Joshua would have had no need to curse them again. (Unfortunately its not enough to put the argument completely to rest.)

    Arlen, I’m sure you know this already but perhaps others here do not so here it is:

    (Deuteronomy 19:15) “… at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.”
    (Matthew 18:16) “… that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.”
    (John 8:17) “It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.”
    (2 Corinthians 13:1) “…In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.”

    Ignoring that scripture interpretation rule has lead many a good teacher and theologian into serious error. Ignoring it has also been a major factor in the fracturing of today’s church body and forms the very foundation of every so-called “bible cult”.

    So therefore without 3 scripture witnesses this whole Hamitic curse thing must forever remain in the realm of speculation. (I’d give it about an 8 on the speculation scale) It should never be declared or taught as fact.

    Furthermore, I fail to see how believing or teaching it as fact could edify the spiritual life of a Christian or in any way assist them in spreading the Gospel. So why bother with it?

    Peace to all.

    DaveO

  31. MJWalling,

    It is good to know you.

    As to your question to me on Marks
    quotations: “Intermarriage between the different races leads to degeneration, rather than progress and development. The revolution being carried on today under the leadership of Satan, aided and abetted by religionists, is Satan’s attempt to destroy the human race and thereby hinder and prevent, if possible, the establishment of the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.”

    MJW, as I said in my comment earlier, I do not agree with every thing that Wilson wrote in his commentary “The Sons of Noah”. I understand what he was saying in a prophetical sense of interpretation, not as racism.
    By saying that; I do not promote hate between the races, I do not promote that African Americans, or any other race are subject to the “Hamitic curse”. This was wrong of our fathers before us in history, to use this type of excuse to justify segregation, and non-enter racial marriage, and slavery.

    I don’t know what was in Wilson’s heart, and niether do you, or anyone else for that matter. We only have his words, that he left behind. I’ve quoted Wilson’s feelings on racism “a dire evil”. Mark has quoted Wilson “Intermarriage between the different races leads to degeneration, rather than progress and development.”

    MJW, As to your remark to me in your point 2.”your slippery slope argumentation fails completely.”, I’m not being slippery about anything I have gave direct, and honest answers to every question asked of me. I don’t have to be slippery, I have nothing to hide, and I have no secret agenda to hurt your theology, I’m content with your theology.

    But to assume someone is a racist, and to say someone is a racist because of a Biblical interpretation, is not very smart. Specialy when that someone says in the very commentary Mark is quoting from that racism is a “dire evil”; come on.

  32. Slow down, Arlen, Wilson never said racism is a “dire evil” — not in “The Sons of Noah.”

    Wilson: “A system of slavery, imposed without consent and for no crime, is a dire evil.”

  33. DaveO,

    I couldn’t agree with you more in your last statement!

    “Furthermore, I fail to see how believing or teaching it as fact could edify the spiritual life of a Christian or in any way assist them in spreading the Gospel. So why bother with it?”

    My questions are these:

    Why would anyone want to stir up such a touchy subject?

    Is it edifying the church in any way?

    Is it profitable to the Lord, to cause hatred toward other Christians, or other races no matter their religion?

    Why would anyone looking for piece want to cause hatred with any person?

    Maybe its something else?

  34. Admin,

    You can interprate this any way you like!

    A.E. Wilson:

    “‘A servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.’ The curse here consists of servitude, which is, in itself, an inferiority, and among the children of self-will, tends more and more to all the horrid ills of slavery. Slavery originated in war and conquest. The mere warrior put the captives to death; the cannibal devoured them; the economist fed them for their labor.
    Accordingly, slavery soon made its appearance in all countries which were trodden by the conqueror, A system of slavery, imposed without consent and for no crime, is a dire evil.

    All that would equal racism “is a dire evil” wouldn’t you say? Admin?

  35. No, you can’t interpret that anyway you like. Wilson did not say racism is a “dire evil” — that’s all there is to say about that.

    This is a fact: He opposed desegregation on biblical grounds.

    Here is another fact: Segregation is racism.

    I only wish that Wilson had said segregation is a “dire evil.”

    P.S. “Why would anyone want to stir up such a touchy subject?” — Because it would be immoral to ignore the issue. Further, this racist teaching is still being taught!

  36. Admin,

    So you are now putting stipulations on what is racism?

    Are you implying that slavery had nothing to do with racism?

    This seems to be a contradiction on your part.

    As far as your comment, “Further, this racist teaching is still being taught!” Its not the 1960s anymore. How about this; African Americans are very smart, and they don’t need a white fellow fighting their battle for them. As far as I’m concerned, if my African American friends need my help they will ask, and I will be glad to do so. But till then I will put my trust in their own God given ability, to stand tall, and to stand proud, and be their own man or woman.

    Arlen Banks

  37. Admin,

    I don’t want to argue, you gave your opinion, and I gave mine. You answered 1 or 2 of my questions, and I have answered everything asked of me.

    I agree with you on the issue of there being no excuse for racism, or segregation using the teachings of the Hamitic curse, or anything else for that matter!

    With that said, I have confidence in the readers of this discussion, to make their own decision about the subject in question.

  38. Arlen,

    “Why would anyone want to stir up such a touchy subject?”

    I believe Admin mainly has a problem with A. Chitwood’s teaching and maintains the he was promoting Wilson’s book on his website.

    Have you read Wilson’s book? Is the following quote from him is accurate?

    “The revolution being carried on today [circa 1960?] under the leadership of Satan, aided and abetted by religionists, is Satan’s attempt to destroy the human race and thereby hinder and prevent, if possible, the establishment of the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.”

    If so, I see no possible way to put that into a prophetic, historical or any other context that justifies it. Which is why I just can’t understand why you appear to be defending Wilson.

    DaveO

  39. DaveO,

    I cannot give you a complete answer to, “Have you read Wilson’s book? Is the following quote from him is accurate?” I’m just too tired to search for it tonight, but if Mark posted the quote I’m sure it is correct. Yes I have read Wilson’s book.

    DaveO, as to “I see no possible way to put that into a prophetic, historical or any other context that justifies it.” If your comment is directed to someone justifying the Hamitic curse as an excuse to segregate, or promote racism as individuals, or a certain race; I agree with you, that there is no prophetical proof for an individual, or a certain race.

    As to your statement “Which is why I just can’t understand why you appear to be defending Wilson.” I don’t want to appear as to be defending Wilson, I am defending him. Like I said earlier, I don’t agree with everything Wilson wrote in ”The Sons of Noah”, and I have made it clear that, the Hamitic curse is no excuse for racism. But once again I must point out the context of Wilson’s commentary; it is not about individual segregation, it is not about racism, it is not about a certain race of people; it’s about the three sons of Noah, and their descendents . Not their descendents as individuals, or descendents of a certain race, but about their descendants as nations, that will eventually enter the millennium. But the evil hearts of men have made this prophecy an excuse for racism, and segregation. You said you couldn’t see it as prophetic, I encourage you not to look at it as individual people, or an individual race, but rather look at it as three nations of people, that descended from the three sons of Noah, and look to the millennium. I know we can’t ignore the problems with racism, and people wanting segregation, but once again that is not Wilson’s focus in the “Sons of Noah”; read the following by Wilson and see his point is to, look to the millennium.

    Wilson:

    “The programme of Noah presents the future — not of the race of mankind as a whole — as did the Adamic foreview; nor that of individual kingdoms and nations — as do subsequent
    programmes — but that of the three main races into which mankind has been divided since the flood. The destiny foreseen for each race is sharply defined, and widely distinct from that foreseen for the other two. Thousands of years of human history have elapsed since this wonderful prophetic utterance. If therefore the prophecy has been falsified by the event, it will be futile to deny it; and if, on the other hand, it has been fulfilled, there can be no mistake about the fact, which must be capable of full demonstration.”

    DaveO, you know things are leading to a one world government, everybody working together, trading with the same money, speaking the same language, one big happy family, and one community. That is not God’s plan for now, nor has it ever been His plan in the past. Why did God change people’s language at the Tower of Babel? Because they were working together as one people! As one nation! Not as individuals, but as a NATION; as one!
    Genesis 11: 5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
    6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
    19
    7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech. 8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

    I said all that, to say this; Wilson was angry that Christian leaders, were doubting the inspiration of the Bible, he then related present problems of society with the subject of these religious leaders, he then said it was “evil”, and then he went into the prophetical interpretation of Noah’s three sons, in that order. Should Wilson have phrased what he wrote, about segregation, and marriage between races differently, and made it clearer for the skeptics to understand? In my opinion, yes!

    I accept if you disagree with Wilson’s theology, and I accept you not agreeing with my theology. I have not been dogmatic in my discussion of this subject, and have admitted negatives by both sides (Mark’s and Wilson’s) on this issue. I have also admitted positives by Mark and Wilson. I would like to see the Author of “Are blacks cursed” humble himself enough to do the same.

    Arlen Banks

  40. Arlen, you want Tony Evans (he’s the author of “Are Blacks Cursed?”) to humble himself enough to do what? Admit that segregation wasn’t all that bad? Admit that he’s part of an inferior race?

    What on earth do you mean by: “I would like to see the Author of ‘Are blacks cursed’ humble himself enough to do the same”?

  41. I apologize to Tony Evans.

    My comment was not directed to Mr. Evans at all. I should have made myself clearer. My comment was to the Admin of KE, who asked, “are black people cursed?” at the top of his blog. I made a mistake and I apologize for that mistake.

    Arlen Banks

    I meant to say the following:

    “I have not been dogmatic in my discussion of this subject, and have admitted negatives by both sides (Mark’s and Wilson’s) on this issue. I have also admitted positives by Mark and Wilson.”

    I would like to see the Admin, of KE, who asked, “Are black people cursed?” to humble himself enough to do the same”?

  42. To the readers of this discussion on, the Hamitic curse:

    I made a tremendous mistake by accidently referring to the Author of, “Are black people cursed” in almost every comment I made on this issue. I meant for those comments, and questions, to be directed to the Admin of KE, who asked the question “are black people cursed?” I HAVE NO EXCUSE! I should have paying more attention to details.

    I apologize to Mr. Evans.

    I apologize to the readers.

    I apologize to the Admin of KE.

    Arlen Banks

  43. arlen: to be fair to you – and i’m only speaking of myself here – i never considered you to be a racist.

    to clarify: the ‘slippery slope’ argument i referred to was the ‘if God didn’t speak through noah, then how could we know he didn’t speak through [insert biblical name here].’ that tirade was wholly unnecessary, imo.

  44. MLWalling,

    First of all thank you!

    As to your comment, “‘if God didn’t speak through noah, then how could we know he didn’t speak through [insert biblical name here].’ that tirade was wholly unnecessary, imo.” I can understand how it would seem to be “unnecessary, imo”. I also, at one time in my life, would have thought the same. But if you were to understand it the way I do, now, as every word in the Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit, you would see my point in doing so. I mean no disrespect to you in that comment, and I am not saying God has shown me more than you, or anyone else for that matter. You seem to be very knowledgeable, and reasonable. With that said, I have some simple questions for you, and for anybody else that would like to answer.

    In your opinion, is the words, in the Word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit, as our Bible say they are?

    If every word is inspired by the Holy Spirit, wouldn’t the words of Noah be as important as the words of Jesus in the gospels, or wouldn’t the words of Paul be as important as the words of Jesus?

    Has not The Word always been?

    Was not The Word before the foundation of the Earth?

    Is Jesus not the Very Word, FROM THE BEGINNING?

    Are not Jesus and the Holy Spirit equal?

    If Jesus is the very Word of God, and if Jesus and the Holy Spirit are equal, would that not imply that Jesus said the very words that came from Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc?

    That was my point in the “unnecessary imo”, and that is why I defend Wilson’s writing, because that was his very point in the beginning of “The Sons of Noah”, and not to promote racism or segregation as has been implied by the Admin of KE.

    I say these things to you with the utmost respect to you, and your own personal views on this issue, and it is not my place to try and change your mind. Also, as I have said before, the use of the Hamitic curse to justify racism, segregation, slavery etc. is evil, and the Bible does not teach that an individual or an individual race is subject to the Hamitic curse.

    As for myself,I believe that every word the prophets wrote in their original language of their time is inspired by the Holy Spirit.
    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holymen of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

  45. Arlen,

    Ok, now I think I see what you’re trying to say. If I may be so bold as to speak for you, you’re saying that Wilson basically claimed that desegregation was a GOOD thing but that certain anti-God groups were trying to bring it about for a very BAD reason.

    **IF** that is indeed the thought he was attempting to convey, I could support that line of reasoning. I would have to agree that the secular humanists that are today trying to unite all of mankind are doing so not to free them, but to fetter them all with the invisible chains of their debt-based fiat monetary system (which was invented in ancient Babylon by the way).

    *Speculation*

    A bit off topic, but I think most here would agree that money has become Satan’s “graven image” of choice. Fiat currencies (dollars, pounds, yen, euros, etc.) are backed by nothing. That paper in your wallet can only maintain its trade value for as long as everyone continues to have FAITH that it does. Worse still is that it isn’t true money but instead a debt note. And the way the system is set up, that debt can NEVER be repaid. (Much like the “sin debt” that Satan enticed Adam to put himself under and only Christ could pay off for us.)

    IMHO Satan’s handwriting is all over this money system. When Antichrist shows up look for him to “forgive” all that debt and people will come in droves to literally worship him for it.

    Back to topic…

    So **if** Wilson was trying to warn people of some variation of the speculation I have outlined above then perhaps his motivation was pure but he was just a poor communicator. In any case I’m all done with this. It seems fruitless.

    Peace to you all my brothers,

    DaveO

    PS. Arlen, I began an email to you about our off-topic discussion above but got sidetracked here.

  46. Admin,

    My answer is NO.

    Not in this present time (age) as an individual race, nor as individual persons.

    The Hamitic curse was not meant for racism, segregation, nor slavery of the African race! Using the Hamitic curse in that fashion, is a fabrication of men, and certain religious leaders to further their own evil agenda.

    Admin,I have a simple question for you: Is the entire Bible (EVERY WORD) in its original languages, that was composed by the prophets who were INSPIRED by the Holy Spirit, The Very Word of God?

  47. Then why are you wasting everyone’s time? The comment section is provided so that people might respond to the article posted at the top; in this case, it is “Are Black People Cursed?” This whole time I thought you were talking about Tony Evans’ article. Rambling on about some other topic wastes time, and it’s not how I want to conduct this board.

  48. DaveO,

    Thank you for seeing my point.

    You said, “So **if** Wilson was trying to warn people of some variation of the speculation I have outlined above then perhaps his motivation was pure but he was just a poor communicator.” On this subject, you are exactly right DaveO. Wilson did not communicate it well.

    I look forward to future discussions with you, by email, or in a forum.

    May our Lord bless you, and yours.

    Arlen Banks

  49. Admin,

    “Then why are you wasting everyone’s time?”

    Admin, in your blog question “are black people cursed?” your whole argument is based on what Wilson wrote. My argument is the subject he was writing about, is not what you claim it to be. I’m completely on subject. Are you refusing to answer my question?

    “Admin, I have a simple question for you: Is the entire Bible (EVERY WORD) in its original languages, that was composed by the prophets who were INSPIRED by the Holy Spirit, The Very Word of God?”

  50. Admin,

    I just asked you a simple question. No one is questioning your faith, that is none of my business. I answered questions, that you say no one will answer about “are black people cursed”, and I just thought you might answer one from me. I myself, believe that every word in The Word of God is inspired by the Holy Spirit; and that was Wilson’s whole argument in “The Sons of Noah”.

    This is not a hard question to answer, and I don’t know to many CHRISTIAN MEN that would not answer my question in public.
    If I affended you, that was not my intention, and I have not treated you, nor any other person in this discussion with any disrespect. I have nothing to gain by being disrespectful to people. But I have nothing to hide from those that are reading this discussion.

    My question still stands to you;

    I don’t need a private email with you to discuss your answer. I accept the fact that you wish not to answer such a question in public.

  51. The inspiration of the Bible was not Wilson’s whole argument. The purpose of his introduction was to conclude that the Hamitic curse, as interpreted by men, is part of God’s inspired Word. Billy Graham never questioned the inspiration of the Bible. Neither do I (admin = Mark Adams). I can even relate that Michael Walling believes the Bible is inspired.

    Graham’s argument, my argument, and Michael’s argument is that the INSPIRED Word of God does not contain a thousands-of-years old curse of any race, certainly no curse that extends to the millennial kingdom.

    I’ve tolerated much from you, Arlen, but my patience is wearing thin. Apparently you and I agree on the main point of this thread: black people are not cursed. You now join the ranks of other Bible-believing men who hold the same. You separate yourself from Wilson.

    Again, what did he base his segregationist’s views on in “The Sons of Noah”?

  52. Admin,

    “Again”, you ask a question, without giving a direct answer to the question you were asked. I was not doubting MLWalling’s opinion of, “is the Word of God inspired”, I was making my point. Also, I was not doubting Billy Graham.

    You said “Graham’s argument, my argument, and Michael’s argument is that the INSPIRED Word of God does not contain a thousands-of-years old curse of any race, certainly no curse (that extends to the millennial kingdom).” This is your interpretation Admin, not mine!

    Admin you asked, “Again, what did he base his segregationist’s views on in “The Sons of Noah”?
    You can refer to the discussion between myself, and DaveO, for my answer to your question.

    You said, “I’ve tolerated much from you, Arlen, but my patience is wearing thin.”

    What have you tolerated, a difference of opinion? Because I don’t agree with your dogma; your patience is wearing thin? Because I, disagree with your claims of racist teachings of those who teach, “The Word of The Kingdom”, such as Wilson, and others? That’s a puny excuse for your “patience are wearing thin”. If you do not want an opinion, that is different from your CLAIMS,AND ASSUMPTIONS, I’ll take my words else where, and be content with it.

    You said,”You separate yourself from Wilson.” I’m no better than Wilson; or any other man or woman, I fail daily, and I will continue to fail while in this present world.

    I believe I’ll take brother DaveO’S advice and be done with this; it does seem fruitless.

  53. Are we speaking the same language? How is it unclear in your mind whether I believe the Bible is inspired or not? I’ve already told you that I do. And I’ve already explained that there is no generational curse, extending to the millennial kingdom, in the INSPIRED Word of God. Yes, you are truly testing my patience.

  54. arlen: 1) you’re welcome!

    2) as mark correctly said, i do believe that the Bible is the infallibly inspired word of God. i also believe that Jesus is the Word of God (notice the uppercase “W” versus the lowercase “w”). in revelation 19:13, Jesus is called “the Word of God.” in john 1, Jesus is called the Word.

    i, again, say that merely b/c the bible has something recorded in it does not mean that it should be imitated or positively endorsed, unless the text indicates otherwise. in the case of noah cursing canaan, the text does not say God inspired those particular words (meaning “as noah spoke them,” not “as they are recorded in the bible”). of course, it doesn’t indicate that he did not inspire them either.

    would you say that God “inspired” canaan to defame his father by spreading rumors instead of covering him up (like he should have done)? else where, would you say that God “inspired” abraham to lie – twice! – that he wasn’t married to sarah?

    i would say ‘no’ to both of those cases, although i would say that their record is “inspired” in the sense that the bible accurately records what happened, and who said what and when. in the same sense, noah cursing canaan was “inspired” (the bible accurately records the event), but his actual act of cursing canaan *may not necessarily be inspired or directly provoked by God*. I say *may not* because the text doesn’t tell us either way.

  55. MLWalling,

    Thank you, for the statement above, it is a fair statement, and shows that you are a reasonable man, with wisdom, and knowledge of the Word of God.

    You are correct in your statement “but his actual act of cursing canaan *may not necessarily be inspired or directly provoked by God*. I say *may not* because the text doesn’t tell us either way.”
    That is my point, sense it *may not* tell us either way in the text, that would leave it to ones own interpretation; I have no problem with your “own” interpretation of the text.

    MLW, also, you bring up a very good point when you asked me, “would you say that God “inspired” canaan to defame his father by spreading rumors instead of covering him up (like he should have done)? else where, would you say that God “inspired” abraham to lie – twice! – that he wasn’t married to sarah?”
    My answer to your question would be this: Sense The Word was in The Beginning, and Jesus is the Living Word, and our Bible is the inspired Word (word’s of Jesus); then all history (past, present and future), was already in existence in The Beginning. So my answer to your question, by this interpretation, would be, yes. But as I said before, I agree with you on your comment above, and I respect your statements.

  56. Admin,

    “You said “And I’ve already explained that there is no generational curse, extending to the millennial kingdom, in the INSPIRED Word of God.”
    This is your interpretation, and not fact. Just because you see it one way does not mean your right. Also, because I see it another way does not make me right.

    My point is this; Wilson’s view of the Hamitic curse was a prophetical view, of the future, and not to promote racism or segregation as you claim.

  57. Admin,

    Thank you for tolerating my objections to your claim of Wilson promoting segregation, and racism. I have more than said enough to bring my point of view to the readers of KE. I feel at this time I should stop commenting any further on your question, “are black people cursed”. It would be pointless to keep repeating myself. If the discussion continues, there will be more material than the readers can read in their valuable time.

    To: MLWalling, and DaveO,

    Thank you for a good discussion on this subject, and I look forward to future discussions with you both.

    If any one would like to discuss “are black people cursed”, further, then please email me at http://www.arlen@thekingdomoftheheavens.org . I will be glad to do so. If there is another subject on KE you would like to discuss with me, please direct me to the subject forum in question and we will discuss it with you there, or you can email me. This invite is to anyone, including the Admin (Mark Adams).

    Arlen Banks

    P.S. Once again, thank you!

  58. “Are black people cursed? No. How hard is that?”

    LOL!

    The issue was a bit broader than that. But yes, that pretty much sums it up!

  59. I am saddened by some of the responses here. Saying you agree with parts of what Edwin Wilson said is like saying you agree with some parts of Mien Kampf. You don’t agree with those ideas, you oppose them. We have to stand up for one another.

  60. MJWalling,

    I just realized I was calling you MLWalling, I apologize for that. Letters of the alphabet are hard for me to see clearly when close to each other, and sometimes, words are as well. I thought it would be appropriate to let you, and the other readers know that I meant “MJWalling”.

  61. Veronica: when truth is mixed with lies (intentional or not), the truth must be affirmed while the lies and false conclusions reached from them must be opposed. For example, Mormons affirm with Christians that the Bible is the word of God. I applaud them for that. However, the lies of Joseph Smith that produced the false-religion of the LDS church must be opposed.

    Similar with Wilson – there *may be* factual truths in his writings that can be affirmed by all. Yet it seems to me that most of his writing regarding the so-called “Hamititc curse” must be opposed.

    arlen: i would even suffice with “hey you!” lol

  62. Context? CONTEXT? The man says blacks and whites should not mix. Context! The man says God cursed Ham. Context! This is nothing short of racism. Clearly layed out. Arlen is taking words out of Edwin Wilson’s mouth. The context says the man was a racist. If he’s not, we might as well accept the KKK as a community service organization.

  63. Mic Johnson: Wilson is guilty, IMO, of over-literalism. He takes the words of “integrationists” (his word) and the words of Scripture in some kind of a wooden fashion. So when the Scriptures say that, for example, in Christ there are neither “bond nor free” (Gal 3:18), he goes onto say “[b]ecause the Lord says there is neither Jew nor Greek, bond nor free, male nor female, the supposition is, there is neither black nor white, and we are all one, in Christ. The integrationists fail to distinguish between what we are representatively, in Christ and what we are personally”(Sons of Noah, p. 8).

    There is some truth in the concept of the “already-and-not-yet” tension in the Scriptures (e.g., http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/the-kingdom-of-god-already-but-not-yet-part-i/). However, *Wilson* fails to recognize that despite some the obvious differences that remain between this world (there are, in fact slaves still in existence today) and the coming kingdom (where slavery to one another is extinguished), this does not necessitate the continued propagation of said differences. Paul himself said that if we find ourselves born-again while in slavery, we should, if able, make ourselves free.

    “Were you called as a slave? Do not worry about it. But if indeed you are able to be free, make the most of the opportunity” (1 Cor 7:21).

    Is this a direct violation of the supposed “Hamitic Curse?” I’d say that Noah’s curse of Canaan (not Ham) definitely had nationalistic consequences for the history of Israel. However, Wilson’s over-literalistic heurmenutic leads him to the conclusions reached in “Sons of Noah:” that the “darker” races are in perpetual servitude until the 1000-year reign of Christ (ibid, p. 5).

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